Presidential debate

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Seattle, Sep 30, 2020.

  1. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    6,549
    I'm sorry, I'm dumb.

    Could you repeat that?
     
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    You are misinformed Candy

    Cutting ties with the Kurds was not making peace. That was "abandonment"

    As to making peace between Israel, the UAE, and Bahrain , these countries were never at war!
    https://nypost.com/2020/09/18/trumps-peace-deal-exposes-follies-of-the-wests-middle-east-experts/

    This treaty was pure reality TV showmanship. A hollow gesture without substance.
     
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Has anybody noticed, where Trump walks in the garden the flowers wilt when he passes.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
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  7. river

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    Life wilts , where ever trump goes . His own family , is infected , knowingly , by trump .

    A True Good Man to his Family , could never do this , would never do this ; It wouldn't even cross his mind.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    That's not true.
    His first actions as President were expansions of the drone wars and clandestine (CIA etc) terrorism operations - the situation in Yemen is a direct consequences of Trump's actions.
    The "peace" he has abetted is handover of violence to people like Putin and Erdogan (out of the news in the US) and a removal of US support for people targeted by terrorist States (the Kurds, Yemenis, Palestinians, et al). The resulting desolation looks peaceful to the willfully ignorant only. What Trump is helping China do to its Muslim population is not "peace" in the ordinary sense, for example.

    Centrally: If you vote for a fascist demagogue, you vote for what fascist demagogues do - if you proposed calling it "terror mongering", using the approved propaganda language such as Schmelzer's proposals for framing the news and defining terms such as "war", then you would be at least consistent - but Trump is not doing a "good job" in the "peace arena" by helping terrorist States beat up on people via military violence.

    My suspicion is that the "peace arena" being adopted by the rightwing authoritarians - sculptor, candy, current examples - has a Russian troll farm origin; just a guess, but the last few assertions like that did - it's the default assumption.
     
  9. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    It is the President's job to executively manage the national public health bureaucracy - in particular, to deal with global pandemics that threaten the citizens of the US. He swore to do that when he took office.

    Trump has utterly and miserably failed at that aspect of his sworn duties. He has also lied about his failure, which has exacerbated its already lethal and seriously injurious consequences. (example lie: Trump claims to have shut down travel from China, after claiming that travel from China was how the virus was spreading to the US. He did not in fact shut down travel from China (thousands of people came in from Hong Kong and Macau and other loopholes) and his theatrical but useless and incompetently managed shutdown did not address the main sources of incoming virus, which were all European. )

    Had Trump done simply and merely what his predecessors in office had set up as a pandemic response, simply let the Federal public health officials act on autopilot, hundreds of thousands of deaths and cripplings of American citizens would have been avoided and something like two trillion dollars of economic damage would have been avoided - and that's just so far: Trump has set up an ongoing disaster with at least two more years to run regardless of what the US does now.

    For example: the use of genetic blueprinting to trace spreading events was an arena of US expertise when Trump took office - it would have allowed detailed and specific targeting of shutdowns and quarantines rather than the wholesale shutdown of entire economies, and possibly the reopening of schools etc. by now. Trump actively prevented this employment of US capability, and as we see with the Barrett superspreader event he continues to block it. That increases the damage from the virus by an order of magnitude.

    What happened to Thanksgiving this year - the difference between how Americans will be able to celebrate this holiday and how most other First World countries would be able to - is entirely Trump's doing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    It also is not POTUS job to advance the idea of "herd immunity", which is tantamount to "culling the population" (letting all people become infected and either acquire immunity or die).

    That is actually an extension of "evolution by natural selection", which suggests that to help this along, we may as well purposely infect every person and let the non-immune people die, thereby eradicate the pandemic very quickly, instead of taking generations to acquire a "herd immunity".
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/10/14/herd-immunity-barrington-declaration/

    (Replace the term "risks" with the term "assures")

    Let's do away with all health care and let nature take it's course as it has for billions of years.
    Easy... and cheap, except for burial costs....

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    Ring around the rosy , pocket full of posies,


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    p.s. I don't care that there are other interpretations. This one fits best, given the history of "warding off" evil possession by wearing garlic.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,091
    This may be informative.

     
  12. candy Valued Senior Member

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    1,074


    I will start my saying that I object to being insulted by being compared to a russian troll.
    The progress being made with the various accords is very real not perfect but it is a small bit of progress.
    The expansion of the drone wars was unfortunately necessary because of the horror of ISIS that ensued after our poor decision to invade Iraq. (Biden voted for that. I did try to warn against it. Obama had the good sense to vote against it.
    My best hope was the the ill advised invasion would at least get the Kurds their independence. Instead they got ISIS.
    What China is doing to the Muslim people is a crime against humanity but I do not see DJT helping them. The situation in Hong Kong is also troubling. How much money is Hunter Biden managing for China?
    As to the media the censoring of the NY Post story is not a high point for freedom of speech.
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,091
    None. No deals were made.

    Trump’s Claims About Hunter Biden in China
    https://www.factcheck.org/2019/10/trumps-claims-about-hunter-biden-in-china/

    OTOH, how many lies has Trump told?

    Scorecard

    True ................ 4% ..... 35 Checks
    Mostly True ..... 9% ..... 84 Checks
    Half True ....... 13% ..... 118 Checks
    Mostly False ... 20% ..... 179 Checks
    False .............. 36% ..... 315 Checks
    Pants on Fire .. 16% ......142 Checks


    https://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/

    How many deals has Trump and son made with Russia?

    Business projects of Donald Trump in Russia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_projects_of_Donald_Trump_in_Russia
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2020
  14. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,646
    From Bolton's book: "Trump said that Xi should go ahead with building the [Muslim concentration] camps, which Trump thought was exactly the right thing to do."
    None. He's been an unpaid advisor for them. They gave him some equity in the company, so he may make money in the future.
    The NYP story, based on Russian misinformation, is sort of a low point for journalism. Other people have refused to carry the story because they do not want to see Russia control US elections. Good for them; that is a victory both for the US and for free speech.
     
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    Then quit posting trollshit that originated in Russia.
    "Our" ? Seriously? The rightwing authoritarian's passive voice - like it's the weather, these atrocities Republicans commit. They just sort of happen, we are supposed to understand.
    It wasn't "our" decision. It was a horrible crime, deliberately and willfully committed, unforced and voluntary, sold to the American public with obvious lies; every left libertarian in the US was trying to stop it. Even the bulk of the Democratic Congress voted against it - like seeing a balloon animal confront a bear. It was that obvious.

    So Trump's expansion of drone violence and restoration of secrecy (CIA control, etc) is an expansion of US military violence in the Middle East, as before in the service of US industrial and financial interests (fascism, by definition) undoing Obama's small and hardwon progress in the area. That is the opposite of doing good deeds in the "peace arena". He has also abetted State terrorism in Mexico, Central and South America, various Pacific Island regions, etc. All of this is continuation of standard Reagan era Republican foreign policy - Trump is not an aberration, just the latest Republican Party President, acting like the others.

    Briefly: He's a fascist demagogue. They don't do good deeds in the peace arena - it's not how they roll. This is the history the white American male voter is doomed to repeat, because he will not learn.
    They got ISIS because of the US Republican Party's neocon invasion and occupation policy - W's Folly. The US re-elected him in 2004, with the lies and horror of the US invasion right in front of the US voter, and the lies and horrors of the US invasion right in front of the Iraqi citizen - the white male American took a good look at W&Cheney, and voted for more of the same (enthusiastically, waving flags and celebrating the manliness of it all, slandering and threatening anyone daring to oppose their restoration of America's primacy in the world, and in general making sure that everyone on the planet knew that this is what America stands for and takes pride in - that the American flag stands for Gitmo and Bagram and Abu Ghraib and mass murder of civilians, the latest in the lineage of nun rapers and child torturers and war profiteers and liars with cruise missiles, so that the most democratic and free nation in any region of the planet is often - as with Iran - the biggest enemy of the United States in that region).

    The American libertarian lefties at the time were right, again. They will never be forgiven for that - they are still not allowed on US major media media to ask questions or conduct interviews, that role being reserved for amnesiac bothsiders and the spineless and the Koch funded pundits who have been wrong about everything for thirty years or more. No Presidential debate ever has or ever will feature a leftwing moderator.
    And somehow the rest of us are supposed to respect that - as if not seeing what that neon-lit TV yammering hypewagon is doing is a plausible, reasonable, political position for an adult man.

    It isn't.

    (DJT has been all over the news for years praising China's government for their ("strong" etc) Muslim policy and supporting their police state suppression of the Hong Kong demonstrators and so forth - and true to form he has since requested campaign aid from the Chinese, to go with the Russian aid he traded something for in 2016 (we aren't sure what he gave Putin in exchange - there are many possibilities, as Trump has both blackmail vulnerabilities and financial dependencies rooted in his decades of open and flagrant money laundering for the Russian mob).
     
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,091
    You are again misinformed.

    Why Trump Abandoned the Kurds, Explained
    What happened in the lead-up to Turkey's airstrikes in Syria.
    BY JAY WILLIS
    October 7, 2019

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    Trump and Turkish president Recep Tayyip ErdoganPhoto by Sean Gallup/Getty Images
    https://www.gq.com/story/trump-erdogan-kurds-syria
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2020
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    candy,
    Do you seriously believe that Twitter and FaceBook deliver more dependable news from "anonymous news sources" than the major News organizations that have reporters risking their lives in the field trying to get the real story? Don't be naive.

    All dictatorships start with controlling the news.

    “Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984

    How You Can Fight Russia's Plans to Troll Americans During Campaign 2020
    https://www.rand.org/blog/2020/07/how-you-can-fight-russias-plans-to-troll-americans.html

    You may also want to check out this site.
    https://www.vox.com/2019/3/22/18275835/fox-news-trump-propaganda-tom-rosenstiel
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2020
  18. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    Why would he?

    He has made it very publicly known how much he hates Muslims and has praised China's handling of its Muslim population in a meeting with Xi Jinping. As far as he is concerned, those concentration camps are the right thing to do.

    Why?

    He owes a Chinese state owned bank over $200 million. His company and his kids have invested and stand to gain even more from China. Why do you think it is troubling? Trump won't say anything or do anything about Hong Kong. It's against his company's interests if he does so.

    Trump doesn't give a shit about Hong Kong or democracy.. So why do you think it is troubling?

    Are you troubled by the protests and human rights abuses? Or are you troubled that Trump remains silent? Or perhaps you are troubled that the reason for his silence is because of his personal stake in China?

    I am genuinely curious.

    None.

    How much is Trump and his spawn gaining from China?

    Those connections extend beyond the Avenue of the Americas loan: Chinese state-owned companies are constructing two luxury Trump developments in United Arab Emirates and Indonesia. The president and his daughter Ivanka Trump, a White House adviser, have been awarded trademarks by China’s government. And his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, has courted Chinese investors in at least one other real estate deal.

    “We actually explored all these foreign enterprises and how once he became president he’d be seen differently by foreign leaders who would have leverage over this president because he had investments in their countries and/or financial dealings with business enterprises and financial institutions and investors in their countries,” said Rep. Gerry Connolly (D-Va.), a member of the House Oversight Committee. “He is highly conflicted with respect to China.”

    Trump has denied he has any conflicts. But he rejected calls to fully separate from his namesake company, which comprises more than 500 businesses and includes properties in nearly two dozen countries, after he was sworn into office. He still owns his business, though he asked his adult sons to run it. His holdings were placed in a trust designed to hold assets for his benefit from which he can draw money at any time without public knowledge.


    That loan, by the way? Falls due in 2022..
     
  19. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    they aren't censoring it. they are wisely not touching it as it has so many red flags I half expect it to be marching in Tiananmen Square.
     
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    @ candy,

    Whatever you hear Trump or his minions accuse anybody if doing to harm the US, is in reality a projection of what Trump is in fact doing.

    Where Trump walks disaster follows. Read his history ! It's all there if you take the time to inform yourself of the sober truth!

    Just consider how many of his cronies have landed in jail, convicted on the facts by juries, just like you and me.
    They were guilty of real crimes , but the reality is that they were acting on orders of Trump. That's why he illegally reversed their sentences. Note that these felons were not "pardoned", but were granted "executive clemency" by Trump.

    List of people granted executive clemency by Donald Trump
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_granted_executive_clemency_by_Donald_Trump

    That's the stuff dictators do.
    Make no mistake, you have been "misinformed and misdirected". Wake up to reality!
     
  21. candy Valued Senior Member

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    1,074
    In reply to various questions.

    I will not read Bolton's book. He has always seemed to hawkish for my taste.

    I do dislike the use of "anonymous news sources" but the major news organizations persist in using them.

    The GRU's cyber efforts and "false flag" operations are the subject of an active FBI investigation.
    The reality is that DNI John Ratcliffe has stated that the NY Post computer story is "not part of some Russian disinformation campaign".
    Today's NY Post has an interesting article about the Biden's and China. It appears that the NY Post is doing the investigative reporting that others have declined to do.

    Why would a company give a lucrative position to someone whose only qualification was being the VP's son if they did not expect they could use it for "pay to play"? I expect that people joining Trump's private clubs also hope they will get "pay to play" status. The problem is that there is a real possibility that Burisma did get something.

    Financial arrangements made by someone before they become a government official are very different than deals made because you are a government official and can influence policy. I don't worry about the Trump kids because the reporters do watch them very closely. Had reporters investigated the Bidens and Burisma or China when questions were first raised there is a good possibility that Joe Biden would not be the Democratic parties nominee for president
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    20,091
    Well today the NY Times also had an interesting article about Trump withdrawing 15.1 million dollars from a China Bank

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    https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a34437778/trump-china-bank-account-corruption/[/quote]
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2020
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,646
    Yep. And the reality is that he is an ardent Trump supporter and political appointee. Before his appointment, even Republicans were concerned about his inability to be impartial due to his allegiance to Trump.
    Meanwhile, Trump pays more to China in taxes than he does to the US. He has secret accounts there that no one knew about until some of his tax records were leaked. What else is hidden in his tax records? There is an even stronger possibility that China has had undue influence over him due to the money they have given him over the years.

    Trump's taxes to China were paid in 2015. They knew he was a candidate - and they knew the power they had over him.
     
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