Portland, Ore

Discussion in 'Politics' started by mathman, Jul 21, 2020.

  1. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    Yet your seeming inability to acknowledge that "things actually change" suggests something quite contrary to wisdom.
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  3. Thus Spoke Registered Senior Member

    Those of us living in the real world can see how over the course of 3+ generations the Democratic Party has managed to bury their racist past. Your seeming inability to acknowledge the full impact of it suggest conspicuous expression of moral values and intellectual dishonesty.

    Do you what Byrd said in 1964?

    "Men are not created equal today, and they were not created equal in 1776, when the Declaration of Independence was written," Byrd declaimed during his peroration. "Men and races of men differ in appearance, ways, physical power, mental capacity, creativity and vision."

    Do you know when he changed his mind? Sometime after 1982, which isn’t really 3 generations ago, is it? It’s was roughly 38 years ago.

    Here’s what he said.

    "I lost a grandson in 1982."

    "It came to my mind at that time, how I loved this grandson, and it also came to my mind that black people loved their grandsons, too, and the more I thought about it, I thought well, now suppose I were black, and my grandson and I were out on the highways in the mid hour or the wee hours of the morning, and I stopped at a place to get that little grandson a glass of water or to have it go to the restroom, and there’s a sign whites-only. Black people love their grandsons as much as I love mine and that’s just not right. So, we, who like myself were born in a southern environment, grew up with southern people, knew their feelings and about the Civil War and all of these things. I thought my goodness, we ought to get ahead of the curve really, not have the law force us to do it. We ought to take down those signs. Well, that is what made me come to the conclusion that if I had to do it over again, I’d vote against that. I’d rather get that law."

    First of all, he’s talking about grandsons, the correct pronoun would be 'him', but he called him an 'it'. Secondly, this is sometime after 1982 and he thought that they should get ahead of the curve. Don’t you find that a little odd?

    What we are witnessing now are the consequences of the 1994 "tough on crime" law created by the Democratic Party. Your seeming inability to acknowledge that shows your lack of integrity.
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
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  5. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    look anyone who fixates like he does on the racist past of the democrats isn't capable of having a rational discussion on racism. it will always be democrats bad republicans good
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  7. Thus Spoke Registered Senior Member

    Pot, meet kettle.
  8. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    to push the fact that your an ignorant partisan onto me. im perfectly willing to applaud republicans when they do good. i also don't use shit from 70 years ago and pretend its still factual today.

    simple question since you think democrats are so racist which party is trying to stop black people from voting?
  9. Thus Spoke Registered Senior Member

    First of all, it’s not information from 70 years ago. Byrd didn’t even realize that his decision was wrong until sometime after 1982.

    Don't you think that communities of color bore the brunt of Clinton’s 1994 crime bill? It’s still impacting them today. Iceaura said that the MS-13 gang was consequence of the US Republican drug war but Clinton's Law intensified the drug war beyond any of his Republic predecessors.

    Secondly, voter harvesting is controversial for many reasons. I’m in no way denying that people aren’t biased, and that numerous biases exist in all humans, but you are automatically assuming that black people are less than. They can’t get to the polls. They're all poor and uneducated. They can’t obtain a photo ID. Most of them are convicted felons, etc. Not only are you stereotyping, you’re using minorities and victims to bolster your own moral superiority. You’re creating a culture of people who like to see themselves sympathetically portrayed.

    Nietzsche was right when he said that a man loses power when he’s pitied.
  10. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    war on drugs---------lost
    war on poverty-------lost
    war on terrorism-----lost
  11. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Not buried it at all; just passed it on to the Republican party.

    Case in point - David Duke. A former KKK Grand Wizard and convicted felon, he was a Democrat until the 1980's. Then, when his white supremacy no longer had a home in the Democratic party, he switched his party to Republican so he could continue his white-supremacist crusade. Indeed, he could not get elected until he switched his affiliation to Republican. Once he did, Republican voters welcomed him with open arms - he won a Louisiana House set in 1989 with support from both George H. W. Bush and Ronald Reagan. Since then he has been a staunch Republican.
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

    That's nonsense. That's like saying that that by pushing for strict rape laws, you are portraying rape victims as less than. They can't defend themselves. They don't know how to say no. They're too incompetent to collect their own rape evidence. They are afraid of the weapons that could have prevented the rape.

    Neither, of course, is true. Black people find themselves disenfranchised, unemployed and homeless not because "they are poor and uneducated" or "felons" but because there are concerted campaigns to deny them the vote, deny them housing and deny them jobs.

    Rape victims aren't "less than" because they were raped. They are victims of a crime, and that crime should be punished and future crimes prevented.
    Minorities aren't "less than" because they are denied the vote or denied housing. They are victims of discrimination, and that should be punished and prevented in the future.
  13. Thus Spoke Registered Senior Member

    Comparing black voters to rape victims is one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. Maybe you can’t see the hypocrisy and ignorance in your view of black people, but everyone else can, and it's racist as hell.

  14. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Once again you completely, utterly miss the point.

    Black people are not stupid, or lazy, or felons. The reason they usually have poorer outcomes is because there are concerted efforts to deny them the vote, housing and jobs. If you don't understand that, you aren't going to understand most of what's discussed here.
  15. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    The poorer outcomes thing is an exaggeration...
  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

    ?? That article reinforces my point.

    "Despite black gains by numerous other measures, close to 30 percent of black families still live below the poverty line. "

    "Those tests show that African-American students, on average, are alarmingly far behind whites in math, science, reading, and writing. For instance, black students at the end of their high school career are almost four years behind white students in reading; the gap is comparable in other subjects."

    Even the title - "How care we've come. and how far we have to go" illustrates my point. We have done a lot to level the playing field. We are not done yet. Black families are still steered into higher income mortgages or denied them even today. Our president's company once wrote a "C" on rental applications to ensure that colored people were denied rental apartments in his complexes. Even today, students with "black" sounding names are admitted to schools less often than students with "white" sounding names. Minority applicants who "whiten" their resumes get more opportunities. All of which means we still have a ways to go.
  17. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    22% of blacks live below the poverty line, 9% of whites and 19% of hispanics. Are the hispanics at that number because of racism?

    Yes, there is still a ways to go in most any subject. You speak of "blacks" as if they are a homogenous group that are all or mostly being disadvantaged. You don't distinguish between all the blacks who don't fit into that description or address what is different about that sub-group. You don't consider that the differences in outcomes regarding hispanics might be the same reasons as for blacks that haven't progressed as much.

    Everything isn't about race.
  18. Thus Spoke Registered Senior Member

    That's what you suggested, not me. No one is denying them the vote. If anything, the "tough on crime" law has hurt them. It still is hurting them and you can thank Biden for that. He’s the one who drafted the bill that’s responsible for the mass incarceration that has devastated America’s black communities.

    He also worked closely with segregationists to oppose school integration.

    According to Iceaura, I’m borderline illiterate. Perhaps, you could have him take a look and somehow downplay Biden’s role in the anti-busing legislation.

    I do think that we should change your parties name, given its racist history and all. What should we call you? How did iceaura refer to himself? Oh, yeah, an educated elite. Well, then, how does champagne socialist sound?
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  19. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    please don't push your racist bullshit onto me. never even remotely suggested what your claiming i claimed. so again is it democrats trying to prevent minority voters from voting or republicans? simple question why are you refusing to answer it
  20. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    so your claiming there is not a concerted effort by republicans to lower the number of black people voting?
  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    And they got stomped by the Republicans in the election anyway.
    Which should have taught them to quit pandering to that faction of American voters - but they did not learn.
    The Republican State legislatures are suppressing the black vote again this year - by various means, including obstacles to voting itself. They have been doing that since the Republican Party adopted Nixon's Southern Strategy.
    Why would you expect me to do that? I have always despised Biden's legislative record, and am more likely to highlight its infelicities than obscure them - as you know by having read my posts.
    You have read my posts, of course, in order to form opinions about them and my stances etc - - - - - ?
    Maybe not:
    The current Party champion of racism and representative of racial bigots is the Republican Party - since the late 1960s, flagrantly since Reagan and Limbaugh. That was intentional - it's called the "Southern Strategy", and it's how Nixon, Reagan, HW, W, and Trump won their elections.

    Educated elites are not the same people as wealthy elites, and champagne is a stereotypically rightwing conservative libation ( people who vacation in Las Vegas, hand out cigars when the baby is born) - you missed your target there, apparently because you don't know what the word "elite" refers to (and you still don't know what "socialist" means.).

    The Democratic Party is largely capitalist, despite being proportionately more working class and therefore poorer than the Republican Party - champagne is occasional for working class folks (I prefer whiskey, but then I am a Democrat only once in a while, such as when voting in a primary or applying to be an election judge. Lots of more loyal Party members think of champagne as something expensive one drinks in celebration, but that product image is more common among the less educated working class than the educated elite in the Party).

    btw: It's "Party's", not "parties" (literacy);
    a change in the Democratic Party's name for that reason would mark a change in its nature rather than a continuation of its former overt racism (did you intend to mark the Party's rejection of its former pandering to racial bigotry?);
    literate people would put a suggested new name within quote marks (like this: "champagne socialist") so the reader would not have to guess;
    and "we" wouldn't be making that change - the Party bureaucracy would handle such things. (My State's affiliated Party, for example, is called the "Democratic Farmer Labor Party", or DFL for short.)
  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    No, it isn't.
    For example: Your bullshit source there manages to discuss the Great Migration without mentioning Jim Crow, the Klan, or the violence directed at black entrepreneurs in the former Confederacy - which is all you should need to know about its reliability. Why would you link to an analysis of black economic progress in the northern cities they fled to that does not mention what they were fleeing from? It was the largest migration of human beings in the history of the species, and your link doesn't even mention its primary cause.
    . In the US almost everything is about race to some significant degree.
    Every aspect of US economic and social structure includes racism and its associated bigotries as a primary influence and factor - often the most important single factor.
    Mostly, yes. Of course.
    - - -
    Elections ............ won.
  23. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Because we all know the history. The point was the progress being made.

    You refuse to see anything other than racism. Nine percent of whites are in poverty. Is that due to racism? Were it not for racism (according to you) would poverty among blacks be 9%? What would be the reason for that 9%? Are all outcomes either equal or otherwise due to racism?

    If Wegs is better off than you (unequal outcomes) is that due to racism?
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2020

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