Polygymy Raid Based on Hoax?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by madanthonywayne, Apr 22, 2008.

  1. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    So the government rushes in and ships off kids to foster care and now it's revealed that the whole damned thing was based on a lie.

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    Should the government be swooping in and shipping off a bunch of kids to foster care on shoddy evidence? They say some of the teen aged girls may have been molested or forced to marry older men. Does anyone think they're safe in foster care?

    This group was certainly wierd, maybe they should have been broken up. But not on this kind of evidence. At least the entire community didn't end up dead as happened in Waco.

    To add to the story, I've heard reports that this Rozita Swinton is an Obama delegate. Here are a couple links that make that claim:
    http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2004195/posts
    http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/192369.php
     
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  3. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    mad it actually doesnt matter if the evidence used to initate a child protection action is genuine or false. All that matters is what they find when they get there because you cant throw a child back to an abusive relationship simply because it was a "bad search". Child protection is PROACTIVE compared to the courts reactive way of dealing with crime
     
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  5. John99 Banned Banned

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    That is not how the law works Asguard. If the Texas authorities cannot show any laws were broken then the lawsuits will come flooding in.
     
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  7. kazakhan Registered Abuser Registered Senior Member

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    So if i accused you of being a pedophile you'd have no problem with being sent to jail until you managed to prove otherwise?
     
  8. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    did i say that?
    NO i said that if you called me a pedifile child services would have the right to investigate wether any children under my care were at risk regardless of the defimation suit that you would be up for.

    John the child protection act has NOTHING to do with criminal law. I have seen ALOT of cases where child abuse hasnt been proven behond a reasonable doubt in COURT yet DOCS have had enough evidence for THERE purposes to act to protect the children involved. Its a compleatly different system involved.

    For instance as an ambo i will have an LEGAL obligation (as well as an ethical one) to report incidents where i belive the child MAY be at risk. This doesnt mean that criminal procidings will start but it DOES mean that a DYFS investigation will begin and wether criminal charges are laid or not that complaint may well be up held. Also because im obligated by law to report if the report is unsubstantiated no case can be found against me for reporting that incident.

    Give you an example

    Say a child comes in on a regular basis to the A&E with broken bones. The doctors and nurses have a legal requirement to report that to DYFS, they then tell the operator how urgent THEY belive the case is and thats the end of it for the hospital (wether its upheld or not). Then child protective services will launch a risk assesment on that child (and any others in the same enviroment) which may or may not lead to the children being removed. The parents\guardians can challange the removal in court and if they can PROVE that DYFS was wrong then they get the kids back

    Criminal procidings on the other hand work in the OPOSITE manner. A complaint must be proven behond a resonable doubt in court for action to be taken. Even the investigating bodies are different. In a criminal case its the police, in a child protection act its DYFS, DOCS, CPS (whatever the relivent child wealfare body is for that state or territory). Also i BELIVE (not sure here) that a DYFS action is revied in the family court (which BTW is a federal court and apeals after going to the full bench of the family court go straight to the high court) where as an alergation of child abuse is revied in the criminal state courts (magistrate, county and surpreme with a final apeal possable to the high court)

    As a manditory reporter i have to know this act and the procidures that go with it quite well

    One last point, an action by DYFS doesnt always mean removal of the children, it could mean monitoring, income management or even extra help if the case is for instance neglect and its caused by circumstances behond the families control (ie not enough money or not enough supervision, family breakdown ect)
     
  9. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

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    Apparently the police don't have caller ID.

    On the other hand when you find a 16 year old with 4 kids, you have evidence of abuse. End of story...
     
  10. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    This was a whole community, 400 kids, I believe. Did all the 16 year olds have 4 kids, or just one?

    More than one girl at my highschool got pregnant at a young age. In fact, the entire JV cheerleading squad got pregnant one year (they were called "The CP-ettes", but eveyone called them the "Sleazy-ettes") . Should the govenment have come to my high school and taken all the kids from their parents?
     
  11. John99 Banned Banned

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    Yes. Asguard believes that the GOVERNMENT can come and take children away based on a phone call.
     
  12. Bells Staff Member

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    Other members of the sect have been arrested and jailed for the rape of minors in the sect.

    While the manner in which the search was conducted was, well, bad to say the least, the reasoning behind it is not. The issue that will now arise is that if they do find proof of sexual abuse, the manner in which they conducted the original search based on false evidence could result in the offenders walking free.
     
  13. John99 Banned Banned

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    And in what community hasnt there? You rail on and on about the Aboriginal babies supposedly taken away under similar circumstances but this you support? Of course you do. If they were a different color you would be screaming bloody murder, well there is a thing called due process Bells. AND equal protection under the law, regardless of race or religion.
     
  14. Bells Staff Member

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    I'm sorry? The children of the Stolen Generation were removed from their family's care with no reason. In recent times, we have witnessed children being removed from their communities and their families where they were being abused, only to have them returned because of the fear of the stigma the crimes of the past and be abused and/or raped again.

    In this case, there may very well be some evidence that underage girls were being made to marry adult males and have their children. Members of the same sect have been arrested and are in jail for similar offences. Hence why I commented on the manner in which the search was conducted and the fact that the tip-off call was most probably false. That does not erase the fact that some girls in that sect have been abused in the past. I don't give a flying fuck what colour they happen to be.

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  15. John99 Banned Banned

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    I agree that something needs to be done where women\girls are abused but the problem here was the fake phone call which precipitated the raid. And i kind of feel that if i were a child in that circumstance i would want to be with my mother and many of those mothers i saw on t.v at that ranch were clearly adults. Perhaps they should have taken all the men away.

    Still i think that you see color as an issue in too many of your viewpoints, and that just not right Bells.
     
  16. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    All the children in the community have been taken from their parents. Is there evidence that they were all being abused? If not, we've got children being taken away because we don't want them being raised to be like those wierdo's. Isn't that pretty much what happened with "the stolen generation"?
     
  17. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    No it isn't. The Child Protection Services is well within it's duties to take the children forma suspected abusive home for a few days untill a hearing can be set. At the hearing it is decided wheter their needs to be more investigation in order to determine the safety of the children. this is done even if the call is a hoax, becuase it is better safe than sorry. If no signs of abuse are discovered the children will be returned with an apology. If there are signs of abuse then the children will most likely be taken from their parents completely. Now the standards for reason to strip the kids out of the home are rigorous so as to avoid any slippery slope. Though if even one percent of the stories i have heard of this sect are truem then those kids are in for a ride through the foster care system as their parents spend the majority of their life in prison.
     
  18. John99 Banned Banned

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    What have you heard? I heard from an interview of someone who left that it was fairly recent where the age of marriage was lowered to 16 and that was due to Warren Jeffries taking over and he is now in prison. Before that it was legal age as mandated by the state.
     
  19. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    Actually, the mariage age was raised to 16 in the compound due to Warren Jefferies. It had been by first menstration.

    However, I have heard of waterboarding of infants in order to train them not to cry. No right to choice in marriage. If the woman leaves it is the husbands right and duty to kill her. Women have no choice in any aspect of their life, including cutting their hair. That children were seperated from their mothers for periods of time to indoctrinate them inot the compound mores. Children were punished if they accidently viewed something the men did not like. Men were molesting their daughters. Children were told over and over that everyone outside the compound was the type person who cut babes from mothers bellies and dashed them on rocks. And so on.

    All of these heard form people who had escaped the compound life.
     
  20. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    john as i said whatever the LEGAL outcomes in australia at least the issues of child protection have compleatly different guidelines. Its there job to PREVENT harm rather than procicute after the fact. So from there view point wether the case was sustained or thrown out because the inital justification was found to be false if they find that the children are at risk then they can take action. There is no need for them to go through a proccess of sustaining the claim

    Put it this way say a father makes up a claim of child abuse against his ex wifes partner in order to advance his own case. It was found to be a bawld faced lie that he made up but in the course of investigating that lie the child protective services found that the new partner's son was abusing the child. Should CPS do nothing or act because they found an abusive home no matter who was doing the abuse or why the inital claim was made?
     
  21. John99 Banned Banned

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    T.W,

    I heard last night on t.v from a woman who left the compound awhile ago specifically say that Jefferies (WHO IS IN PRISON RIGHT NOW FOR SEX WITH Minors) was who lowered the age from what it was previously. Which was the legal age.

    If things there were as bad as you say then why did the government not do anything? They have intervened other times. Perhaps the stories you heard are fiction.
     
  22. John99 Banned Banned

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    OK Asguard. If you have children and piss someone off (or just because they get off on it)and they call the cops anonymously and say you are abusing your kids then the cops can come and take your kids away for as long as they like?
     
  23. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    Well, I heard the facts yesterday from several people in several different interviews. One was even Jefferies niece, They had no reason to lie as they would get nothing from it, literally. Also several women interviewed have said they were married in their early teens, decades ago. So you might have misunderstood what the woman was saying. The age might be 16 now, but for other facts to line up correctly Jefferies would have had to raise the marriage age recently for it to work out to be 16 now.

    As for why the governement did not step in. They needed what they thought was a call for help from a current witness or inside source. Someone coming up and saying "Three years ago they were beating us with brooms." is not going to cut it.
     

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