Poland set to demolish 500 Soviet monuments

Discussion in 'History' started by Plazma Inferno!, Apr 1, 2016.

  1. Plazma Inferno! Ding Ding Ding Ding Administrator

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    I thought to place this in World News, but I placing it in History seemed more propriate. Anyway, the Polish government plans to demolish about 500 Soviet monuments throughout the country.
    Lukasz Kaminsky, head of the Institute of National Remembrance, responsible for investigating crimes against the Polish nation, said that plans for the demolition of the monuments, would be sent to local authorities in the coming weeks. These monuments should have been demolished in the early 1990s, he said, calling the preservation of the monuments "a fatal mistake."

    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/poland-set-to-demolish-500-soviet-monuments/564120.html
     
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  3. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    Ye, we should demolish the monuments of Kosciusko and Pulaski
     
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  5. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    I was in Budapest for about 10 days,* the first year Hungry was included in the Euro-Rail tickets. I had one you could start and stop. Wonderful city to explore on foot and city buses were effectively free. There is a time stamp machine on bus that you cancel your ticket with, but I noted few did that. I figured I could "play dumb" in English, show my ticket, etc. but I was never asked to show a canceled one.

    There was a huge red star on top of the congress building, which is on the east side of the Danube. No one knew how to get it safely down. At a "war hero's park” cemetery entrance there was a huge block of granite and once a large statue of Stalin stood on it. They were taking him down. – There was big pile of cut up bronze behind it still and his boots were still there on the stone - they were more than a meter tall. I suspect the officials were trying to decide if they should be left there or not. If it were up to me, I would have said: “Let them stay - they are a real and desirable memorial to a cut-down tyrant in Hungary's history.”

    * I had been to most European cities more than once on about 10 prior Euro-Rail passes each summer.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2016
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  7. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    I wonder who killed Stalin ? there is a suspicion it was Beriua , any idea ?
     
  8. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

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    that is a grossly inappropriate analogy. you seriously think destroying monuments to people that helped us become a country is anywhere near the same thing as destroying monuments glorifying a country that invaded your country, overthrew its government, and installed a puppet government?
     
  9. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    And murdered thousands in the process, Soviets murdered thousands of Poles during its invasion, occupation, and annexation of Poland, and then there is the environmental decimation and economic rape.

    Yeah, I'm not surprised they want to destroy monuments praising their oppressor.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2016
  10. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

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    Which makes it a tad unclear what "demolished" is supposed to mean; apparently not down to the level of unrecognizable rubble. Maybe some of the usual decapitated stone heads and dedications preserved which celebrated what great fellows "Uncle Joe" and "Grandpa Lennie" (etc) were.

    Strangely, there might even be a quasi-justifiable complaint that bias is afoot, should the far greater passion in a "recent" grudge versus "older" grudges be ignored. If institutions feel archeological and historical outrage over Middle Eastern fundies destroying the ancient remains of non-Islamic cultures, then is there really any difference between preserving the (sometimes defunct) heritage of religious beliefs and preserving that of political ideologies? Sacred affairs were often just a front -- or intermittently used as a manipulative facade -- for legitimizing and carrying out the agendas / hidden motives of rulers, oligarchies, and doctrines of governance, anyway.

    A touch chilling that the contemporary Russian state still feels such nostalgic warmth for its Soviet era, which pioneered early techniques for mass-elimination of millions of dissidents before the Teutonic goose-steppers later borrowed and improved(?) on the methodology. Given that the mainstream of Germany at least still has some sensitivity and taboo-like avoidance of any historical-derived nationalism grounded in its Nazi past, and similarly mainstream Japan in regard to its bygone militant empire. "How can Americans be so boldly unconstrained and zealously patriotic? In my country we're taught to downplay nationalism, to be more modest via a cultural pride rather than display it in aggressive political contexts."
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2016
  11. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    There is a difference between relatively recent political inspired monuments used to subjugate, justify and elevate oppression versus monuments from extinct cultures that are not well understood dating back hundreds, if not thousands of years. One is easily replaceable, the other isn't. One is well understood, the other not. There is a difference.

    It shouldn't be difficult to understand why oppressed people would want to remove symbols or at least not elevate, honor or glorify the symbols of their oppression. There nothing nefarious or unreasonable in that. Perhaps Poland should should put the monuments into a holocaust like museum to remind Poles, present and future, of the atrocities and oppression waged on them by Soviets before, during and after WWII.

    I'm not sure what that means or why you have singled out Americans. Like it or not, the US is and has been a very important player in the world and as a result is very visible. What happens in the US affects the world. It's the world's largest economy. It's the world's strongest military power. It's the country many rely upon to make the world secure. But it isn't a dictatorship. It believes in democracy and partnerships.

    Do you have some evidence of this "unconstrained and zealously patriotic"? I haven't met or seen anyone from any country who wasn't "zealously" patriotic. I expect people of other nations to be patriotic. I think most are. But that doesn't make them zealous. Honesty, doesn't make one zealous. What's important is that we all respect and honor each other and try to live together in peace. Here is something else to keep in mind, especially when accusing others, sometimes people project their insecurities onto others. So before you accuse the US of being zealously patriotic, you should probably look at your own insecurities.

    I find a certain danger in your comment, that somehow some people are better than others. Some people are taught better manners. Some people are taught to downplay their patriotism, etc. I have seen no evidence of that. We are all human and we are all subject to all the frailties of humanity. We are all subject to the vulnerabilities of being human. None of us are immune from demagoguery or the sirens of fascism. The moment we believe we are is the moment we become most vulnerable fascism and demagoguery.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2016
  12. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    It was a joke . I was just curious if some American knew who the de two Poles wae.
     
  13. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

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    It was in quotation marks and red font for a reason, not random whim. Even if I had ever heard or read equivalent comments concerning a different country, why would I want to choose them? To get yet another perplexing reply like: "Why did you choose Brazil as an example?" What one encounters is what one encounters. If you were in a casual conversation with an Iranian at a sports event, and he/she suddenly shouted "Death to America!", would you have much of a choice in terms of the information your ears received? [What gets culturally lost is that Iranians can purgatively shout "Death to _FITB_" like Americans say "I'm going to kill so and so for doing that."]

    It's not my problem that Planet Zorgon is so distant from Earth that they're unaware of nationalism having modest boundaries in post-war Germany and Japan. The contrast to the US example was intended for those who have likewise directly encountered or witnessed via media sources such curiosity and observations from persons and analysts of the applicable countries. I have no interest in futile efforts to convert a person from their provincial disbelief that such statements of awe or inquires ever occur.

    So why the astonishment that some of us hear the US being featured in this or that comment? Even online, forums in the rest of the Anglophone world itself usually have at least or one or two if not numerous Yank bashers / disparagers. Being an ally or speaking the same language doesn't mean "I have to like you bloody, warmongering ########!" as a familiar remark might be. On the flip-side or for balance, Americans have achieved quite a reputation for being arrogant, ugly / uncivil, etc.

    Look, it's not a crime if you don't get out much. As noted previously, I have no concern about or objection to your [possible?] disbelief that zero Germans and Japanese have ever marveled at the degree of American patriotism expressed at a particular event or a generic assessment abstracted from many events.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2016
  14. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    LOL, yes, well, we wouldn't want to keep you from med rounds. I hear things get busy this time of day on the Planet Zorgon.

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  15. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    They are quite rare. I only know of one, which I discovered while wandering around in Budapest.* On the pest (west) side of Danube (I always thought that river divided city should be call Pestbuda, but it ain't) there is a small monument to Ginghis Khan. I could not read the Hungarian, but concluded it was also a marker of his most western advance into Europe.

    There is a surprising monument to the Japanese, made near end of WWII on the grounds of the US Navy Academy. It is a "thank you" but I forget the details. Something about / like the Japanese, during the war returned many bodies of American sailors that had been killed. This of course does not come close to "glorifying a country that invaded your country, overthrew its government, and installed a puppet government" but surprised me to see it there (in Annapolis MD). I hope it is still there - that no jerk like Trump has ordered it removed.

    * Budapest is an interesting city to wander around in. For example after dark, I heard some music coming from a church. I went inside and sat in the back. There were at least 15 musicians on the small stage, playing. One had a dog beside him. That seemed strange, but closer inspection of them soon relieved why. They were all blind!
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2016

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