Pledge of Allegiance

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Onefinity, Sep 15, 2005.

  1. Onefinity Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    401
    And by the way, "patriotism" - if that is to be defined as loyalty to the core spirit of a nation - would, in my view, meaning being fully willing to work for helping all people achieve life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. As we have seen, a great many people who are willing to wave flags, pledge allegiance, even pick up a gun and shoot enemies in other lands, are NOT willing to change things they do in their daily lives. They are not willing to do the things that have impact to sustain the core American spirit, the one that creates freedom rather than sitting on the backs of the "Founding Fathers." They are not willing to vote. They are not willing to speak out. They are not willing to "get involved" with their neighbors. They wait to see what others will do. They are followers. They are not defenders of America in its core spirit. Their patriotism is hollow. It is empty. It is almost treasonous. But since I am not one of them, I will not point fingers at them. I live, I act according to my conscience, I reach out to attempt to uplift, no matter whether I am the only one. No matter if it seems to "make no difference." Because I realize that the critical mass is one. Clearly, Tocqueville was right in his prophecies about what America would become. Yet, I believe there is hope.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. crazy151drinker Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,156
    "It isn't Judeo-Christian"

    Judeo Christian as in the God that we believe in. I guess I could even say Judeo Arabic Christian as we all believe in the same God (its the whole Messiah thing that gets messy)
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Onefinity Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    401
    PJ, I think that your intellect has far outrun your maturity in this case. Stick with the Philosophy threads. You are not going to do well in the Politics arena without some sorely needed humility.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,214
    hypewaders:

    An interesting point, but I feel flawed. The government is the total body of voting citizens of the United States and their representatives and exists as such a collective entity. This entity rests on certain principles enshrined within it, in order for it to remain as it is. These principles are manifestly republicanism, liberty, and justice. If one cannot support these three notions, then one ceases to support the foundation of America, which means that one cannot support the American government, and do not view it as valid.

    Onefinity:

    Tell me, Onefinity, is treason a legitimate crime?

    I agree, most self-proclaimed patriots are not, in fact, patriotic at all, aside from believing, and perhaps not really even then, in the core principles of the American Republic.

    crazy151drinker:

    Christianity is wildly different from Judeaism still, and thus no matter if you both worship Jehovah/Yahweh, you end up with two totally different religions.

    Onefinity:

    How was I being unhumble by making that statement? Is not it proper for a man to defend his conception of bare-bones patriotism?
     
  8. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,214
    Let me pose this question to all.

    Would America cease to be if one, or more, of these three attributes were to no longer remain at the core of America?

    1. Republicanism - Government without a king.
    2. Justice - Law and and order and the notions of justice as enumerated in the US Constitution, I.E., innocent until proven guilty, no ex post facto laws, the right by trial by jury, et cetera.
    3. Liberty - Guaranteed rights of freedom when not in violation of the law.
     
  9. VossistArts 3MTA3 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    454
    I consider making that pledge to be more than a show of support for the type of government we have. Its vowing to stand up for what it represents, and the people it represents. Ive taken the pledge a 1000s of times, but it wasnt made me decide to be a good citizen, or to support the people of this country or to be aware and critical of the goverment when I feel like its appropriate. I decided that. I feel free to not say the pledge of allegiance. Ive done that. I live that. what im trying to point out is that I see people taking the pledge and singing the songs and waving the flag who arent living by the oath theyve taken and who disrespect the country by disrespecting other americans for acting freely.If you think its perfect and cant be better and arent willing to tolerate people who see it differently than you do, then maybe you dont belong here. but see, thats bullshit. We all belong here at this point. None of us can do anything about how we took this continent, and in a historical sense, we hardly have the right to tell anyone who isnt deliberately subversive to the fundamental freedoms were so happy to have, that they dont belong. So we do the best we can to make it a better place by doing something about it, not by just saying we will.
     
  10. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,061
    Prince James: "The government is the total body of voting citizens of the United States and their representatives and exists as such a collective entity. This entity rests on certain principles enshrined within it, in order for it to remain as it is. These principles are manifestly republicanism, liberty, and justice. If one cannot support these three notions, then one ceases to support the foundation of America, which means that one cannot support the American government, and do not view it as valid."

    Royalist bastard. You would throw Thomas Jefferson right out of the Republican Party? Wouldn't you, and be honest. He warned Citizens that if we cease to rock the government now and then, that we will inevitably come to resemble the Soviet Union. That is of course not a direct quote, but a summary in contemporary plain American English. In other words, if we were not prepared to act as Citizens to do drastic things now and then, power would corrupt while feeding on popular affinity for behaving as small children when dealing with the world's and nation's most important issues.

    We should not as faithful Citizens acquiesce to a government that is anti-democratic in war preparations, asinine in invasion schemes, devious in propaganda, and incompetent at colonial occupation.

    We should not be angry just because the Neoconservatives are bad colonizers. We should not be angry because they didn't read their history- esp. that of British colonozation/creation/loss of Iraq, and are making very basic and stupid mistakes.

    We should be angry because they have twisted this Nation in to a grotesque parody of a progressive democracy. We can communicate. It's the Information Age. We don't need recess appointments so that a Senator from Maine can make the 4-day trip to the Capital. We don't need Presidential elevations to heights of power sufficient to ignor the War Powers Act. We don't need sufficient soviets in our duma to pass (as if they were the sphincter of a rising American monarchy) the "Patriot Act"

    These are all vile insults to the founding principles and ideals of the United States of America. Now your stupid Bushevik view is an acceptable political opinion to have, because you are simply entitled to have it. But if you are Too ignorant of American history to comprehend what I have just told you (please check it for correctness if in doubt) then my duty-bound Patriot Act as a caring Citizen is to look you right in the eyes, and tell you:

    Are you stupid, or something?
     
  11. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,214
    VossistArts:

    I agree. There is a lot more to being a good citizen then blind shows of patriotism, but there is also something inherently disdainful of our nation to cease to be willing to pledge allegiance in the manner officially adopted as the standard model.

    hypewaders:

    Ha! I just realized the irony of my SN and my argument. Good show.

    Never have I denied this.

    You mistake me for a blind supporter of president Bush. I never claimed anything of the sort. Though I voted for Bush and support a deal of his policies, he isn't conservative enough for my tastes, nor do I find him a particularly strong or effective leader. Judging by outward displays of character and strength, and not necessarily politics (as I know little of his personal views), I'd pick a Donald Rumsfeld.

    This is somewhat besides the point.

    Again, irrelevent to the discussion. Your points, whilst valid, are meaningless for this.

    Your political prejudices and capacity to branda nother as a "Bushevik" without asking me, betrays much about you.
     
  12. buddhaman386 Registered Member

    Messages:
    21
    I don't really want to pledge allegiance to this country- considering the way it's going, I'd like to be able to get out when things get really bad.
     
  13. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,061
    Donald Rumsfeld is a Bushista too, Prince James. He is a neoconservative seeking the agenda of the Project for a New American Century. That makes you a Bush supporter, because Herr RumsfeldMarshal is intimately involved in formulating present U.S. foreign policy. Bushevik.
     
  14. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,214
    buddhaman386:

    If you feel it so, please go do so.

    hypewaders:

    I never claimed I wasn't a Bush supporter, but I am not, as you say, his greatest fan. Bush lacks leadership capacities, but his policies are at least superior to those of the Democratic party and in accords, at least in part, with the political philosophy I espouse. So do call me a Bushevik if you like. It matters not.

    As to "The Project for a New American Century", what are your objections to the platform?
     
  15. crazy151drinker Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,156
    How can we honestly compare the thoughts and ideals of the founding fathers when the issues that they had to deal with were completely different from the ones we have today?

    The U.S. was not a Mega Power in 1785 and as such did not have any of the problems/responsibilities we have today. Granted some may argue for Isolationalism, and at times I too say "F- the world, lets take care of ourselves". However, history has recently dictated that when we do such things world wars break out.
     
  16. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,214
    crazy151drinker:

    Yes. It would seem the modern world has essentially forced our hand as regards interventionism.
     
  17. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    53,966
    Isn't it just a grand way of advocating endless war? Good for the military-industrial complex, bad for you and me.
     
  18. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,214
    Spidergoat:

    Are not there certain political realities that force our hand to engage in "endless war" in order to assure our interests are kept?
     
  19. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    53,966
    Only if your interest is war and not peace and security.
     
  20. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    53,966
    From the Project for a New American Century's website

    Wake up, the cold war is over, this is just a lobbying group for military contractors. Al Quida is well armed? ...with what, boxcutters? Conventional warfare is obsolete, they are searching for other reasons to justify their income. The Neo-Cons have an interest in keeping us in fear, that's why they didn't care about stopping Al Quida, and got us distracted in Iraq, it was willful negligence.
     
  21. radicand Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    638
    But how is peace and security maintained?
     
  22. changa was far, is near Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    71
    I would submit that not all Muslims are terrorists.


    And Baron is correct, having 6-year-olds say the pledge cannot
    be considered a valid and binding agreement.

    Pledges pressured out of children have no value for a free and just society.

    And that war is only "necessary" for those who see themselves as warriors.
     
  23. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    53,966
    Mostly by cooperation with the world community and the UN, by observing our treaties, by supporting democracies not dictators. By attacking only when we or our allies are attacked.

    As far as the military, read Martin Van Creveld's Transformation of War. Advanced (and expensive) military arms are not leading to victory in Iraq. We need more navy seal/green beret- type commando forces, and fewer bombers and aircraft carriers.

    http://www.nwc.navy.mil/press/Review/2000/autumn/art2-a00.htm

    The Cons are lying to everyone. They are stuck in the cold war, and people like Colin Powell, who know better, evidently have no place with them.
     

Share This Page