Pledge of Allegiance

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Onefinity, Sep 15, 2005.

  1. cato less hate, more science Registered Senior Member

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    I agree with the Baron, people are stupid, and individualization is the perfect way to see just how stupid a person can get. and another thing, what ever happened to elitism? it used to be people wanted to be better than the rest, now we have little league games where nobody keeps score so there are no "losers." just look at Robert S McNamara, he turned out to be one of the most influential people in the whole world, and when he was a kid the teacher reseated the class according to how well you did on the test. that shit would not fly today, yet it is the best way to produce high level students IMO. sorry, got up an a soap box there for a sec, but you see what I mean.
     
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  3. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    I DO think that a fascist state is Bush's ideal form of Government.
     
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  5. Roman Banned Banned

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    If individualism's so stupid, how come our democracy is based not around mobs but individuals? Is that what's wrong with America? Not enough mob rule?
     
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  7. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    Because democracy is flawed that way. I prefer the Roman Imperial system- total rule by joint Emperor-Senate government, and successor chosen on merit.
     
  8. Onefinity Registered Senior Member

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    Let's stay on topic, now.
     
  9. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    It's directly involved. Shut up.

    Still, though, I don't see what the big beef is. If you don't like the pledge, don't say it. Just stay seated and ignore it. It's what I do.
     
  10. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    I don't think we've strayed far at all.
    The subject of Individualism vs Fascism vs Imperialism etc is closely related to the debate of the Pledge of Allegiance.
     
  11. Onefinity Registered Senior Member

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    Sort of.
     
  12. Onefinity Registered Senior Member

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    But that's not good enough for me. It's all the millions of kids who are led through this ritual each morning that concerns me.
     
  13. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    Does any one know off hand how many other countries, if any, have an equivalent pledge in their public schools?
     
  14. sniffy Banned Banned

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    In Britain the Lord's Prayor used to be said at the beginning and end of every day, whilst a picture of the monarch looked benevolently down. Not any more I don't think but I could be wrong. Not quite the same thing anyway.
     
  15. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    I think its good that Newdow was able to pursue this issue futher. While some here may have been able to decline their involvement with saying the pledge under these circumstances, I wonder how many did try and were belittled, singled out, or other retalitory measures taken to ensure compliance with this tradition.

    In Minneapolis public schools, (2003 I think) a teen declined to stand for the pledge and sat at her desk. This was the first time in many years the pledge had become mandatory in the public school setting (9/11 response). She was given detention. The family did bring this issue futher but I dont know how it was resolved.

    I think its important, in a public school setting, to ensure that the curiculm will be as inclusive as possible and not provide opportunity to single out differences in someone in areas such as religious belief. And its not just atheists who are affected by a mandatory pledge. Jehovas Witness also have a deeply held belief that put them in direct conflict with the recital of the pledge. If I remember right, the first successful lawsuit against the pledge was a J.W. vs some Texas school board.

    I am also puzzled by the majority of american opinions on this matter. It seems clear to me, that if such a pledge required the words "under Allah", or "under Buddha" the majority would be on Newdows side. So it appears that this inclusion of the words "under God" represent the idealisms of a particular religion in the minds of the majority.

    So while I support Newdows efforts, I also worry that should he get to the S.C.o.t.US, he may find the ideology in the majority to be hostile to any admission that this piece of religious freedom, to be implemented, would require the court to side with Newdow and go against the majority of american opinions on this matter.
     
  16. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Why not divide up the classes into ....those that want to say the pledge and those that don't want to say the pledge? I mean, we're becoming more and more divided in this country anyway, why not just go ahead and divide now! Segragate! Where is it written that everyone must agree to what is going to be done? We're a divided nation, let's admit it and do it and go on about our business.

    Baron Max
     
  17. Onefinity Registered Senior Member

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    That's not good enough.
     
  18. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Okay, what IS good enough?

    Baron Max
     
  19. cato less hate, more science Registered Senior Member

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    I don't really care about the pledge, I say it, but I leave out the god part. I think it would be good to have the god part taken out because it will bring the debate of theology and how much of our life/country should be governed by someone's interpretation of god into the limelight.
     
  20. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Cato, I think the ideas of "god n' state" are ALREADY in the fuckin' limelight!

    I said the pledge every damned day of my school life and I was an atheist ....and it didn't hurt me one lousy bit! It didn't make me beleive in god, it didn't make me angry, it didn't hurt me, it didn't harm me, it didn't change my mind about nothin'. Shit, it's just a bunch of fuckin' words ...the mean nothing UNLESS you say it like you mean it.

    Baron Max
     
  21. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    You do realize that they aren't FORCED to say it, but if they want to they can.
    But, if it pisses you off so much, why don't you just go and kill everyone who says the pledge?
     
  22. Onefinity Registered Senior Member

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    To a child, and to most adults in a sheep-like society, being led into an activity by tradition or because it "seems" be to required is virtually the same as being made to do it.
     
  23. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    Well, at least we aren't doing the Bellamy Salute anymore:

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