Pledge of Allegiance

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Onefinity, Sep 15, 2005.

  1. Onefinity Registered Senior Member

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    401
    As you may have read, Michael Newdow has received a positive judgment on his claim that the Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional in its current form. Specifically, it is the "under God" part that he objects to.

    Newdow had previously been able to take his suit as far as the Supreme Court, but the claim was dismissed becuase he did not have legal guardianship of his daughter, who attends public school in California. This time, he is working on behalf of three parents. Now his case goes to the Ninth Circuit, and thence, possibly, back to the Supreme Court.

    I've also read that a Virginia judge recently dismissed a similar suit, saying that although "under God" is religious, it is part of something that is a patriotic tradition and not religious in and of itself.

    I removed the phrase "under God" myself when I was in the fifth grade, of my own free will. But many kids don't think about these things, nor are they encouraged to, so they simply say the whole pledge because the school leads them through it.

    I believe that it is wrong for a public school to lead the pledge with "under God" in it. I further believe that the entire Pledge of Allegiance is an anti-democratic practice. It is practiced in rote, without meaning, and very, very few students know that they are not legally obliged to even stand for the Pledge, let alone that they are not required to say it.

    What do you think?
     
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  3. Mystech Adult Supervision Required Registered Senior Member

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    It's an attempt at a sort of fascist indoctrination, but of course when you say it a million times as a school child it completely looses any meaning anyhow, so it's not as though it matters one way or another. They could have had me pledging to jump off a cliff and hang-glide into Canada to de-sovietize them for all I care today.
     
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  5. Onefinity Registered Senior Member

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    So through repetition it loses its power for good AND for bad. But in losing its power, it is working for bad, because it then teaches that "in our society, and in life, people tell you to do stuff and you just do it. Don't worry about it." If we are going to have a society of thinking, reflecting, active, involved citizens, we might do better to avoid the rote altogether rather than be satisfied that any potential downside to its particular content will be neutralized through repetition.
     
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  7. te jen Registered Senior Member

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    I was a science teacher in an American public school and I never required my students to speak the pledge nor did I ever recite it myself. Of course, I left the profession (1999) before the current fascist onslaught - today I would probably be up the creek.
     
  8. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    23,053
    Perhaps we should completely eliminate schools and make parents educate their own children in any way that they wish.

    Everyone is not going to be happy with everything, so let's not do anything!!!

    Baron Max
     
  9. SativaDiva Registered Senior Member

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    I, too, have believed the same thing since first having to say the pledge. Private schools should be based on all biased types of teachings. Public schools, however, should be teaching the unbiased types. What the hell ever happened to separation between church and state, anyhow? Seems lately that there is no difference between the two.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2005
  10. Roman Banned Banned

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    11,560
    The 'under god' bit is a shame, but I see nothing wrong in children pledging allegiance to their country.
     
  11. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    How are we going to make everyone happy? Is that even possible? And if so, what is the nation and the people going to be like?

    I'm truly getting sick of this idea of "individualism" ...it's obviously not working!

    Baron Max
     
  12. xylus chocolate Registered Senior Member

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    39
    Why not just make all schools private? Then people can choose schools based on what they're biased to. And for those who don't like any, do as the Baron said, and just home-school your kids.
     
  13. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    fascist : often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

    I don't see this type of government in America so why do you think it is so. Perhaps you left because you can't tell the differences in what political systems are running things.
     
  14. sniffy Banned Banned

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    "I'm truly getting sick of this idea of "individualism" ...it's obviously not working"
    Me too! I agree!
     
  15. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    Let's all pledge to hug a tree today. If you can't find a tree Baron Max will do. Hug him really tight.
     
  16. Neildo Gone Registered Senior Member

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    I'm all for the "under god" part to be taken out of the pledge of allegiance. It's not like that was part of the original verses anyways. The "under god" part was later added sometime in the 50's or 60's to help combat the "evil athiest Communists". I guess the reason why some want the "under god" part to remain is to combat the evil "Islamic terrorists". Yeah, that one little phrase sure will do a lot of damage to our rivals and make us feel better, lol. Silly Christians.

    - N
     
  17. top mosker Ariloulaleelay Registered Senior Member

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    ok?
     
  18. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    I think the entire Pledge of Allegiance is stupid as a whole. That's why I never stand when they do it over the intercom.
     
  19. SpyMoose Secret double agent deer Registered Senior Member

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    Great, idea. Abandon the Ideal of public education so that the ranks of the never-educated and un-skilled can rise among the poor and middle class, and America's standard of living can drop to that of a third world country as we have no manufacturing base and a brain drain that leaves us without any other money making scams. Hooray privateization!
     
  20. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    I'm guessing that your post is sarcasm, so ....... is that to say that you're an advocate of FORCED education? And if so, what other form of FORCED 'stuff' are you for?

    Baron Max
     
  21. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    So, regardless of the many thousands upon thousands of books, dissertations, articles, opinions etc. written about fascism and Fascism, that single sentance sums it up well enough for you to deny a fascist trend developing in this country and/or government?
    Interesting.
     
  22. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    I don't know about him, but I would! To me, the trend in this country has been ever-growing toward "individualism", certainly not the other way around!!! This nation and our laws are almost all geared toward the individual over the nation and/or the governmental authorities. How can you see otherwise?

    Baron Max
     
  23. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    13,406
    I still haven't made up my mind.
    It seems to me that the two do not necessarily have to be mutually exclusive.
    Mussolini's definition of Fascism is earmarked by a conglomeration of Government and Industry to create a Corporatist state, and all members are effectively coerced or forced into allegiance to that state.
    The State is obviously paramount to the individual, and the individual is subservient to the state, but the popular view of the black-shirted cogs marching in-step is a bit of a caricature, don't you think?
    Besides, look at the far right Christian Fundamentalists... Granted, they are a minority, but a minority growing in power, influence and voice.
    I can certainly see the reasoning behing those that characterize the Fundy Right as a fascist (if not Fascist) movement.

    Hmm...

    My mind is still not made up.
    Regardless of whether or not there is a growing fascist trend in this country or government, I think someone would be hard-pressed to convince me the the Pledge is not aligned with fascist technique and ideology.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2005

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