they own all copies, at whatever point they're made. as soon anything pirated is created, they own it, so you took it from them. @ norsefire, (too jumbled to quote you here, i'll be clear though) yeah i was addressing spidergoat. i don't think severe punishment is fair, give them benefit of the doubt, try to rehabilitate them (so they can keep contributing to society and their friends/family) and if they keep offending increase the severity. criminals who aren't a risk to society don't need to be ostracized. libertarian sounds right, lets go with that. i posted in your bigotry thread a while back, and i agree with you, but i still like multiculturalism, think hospitality is important and am not concerned by dangerous cultures. between the law and my expectations of acculturation its a manageable threat or whatever. i'm taxed, and give willingly and generously.