Petitions from 20 States Requesting to Secede from the United States

Discussion in 'Politics' started by madanthonywayne, Nov 12, 2012.

  1. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    A couple of things, do you have proof that banks gave money to their cronies who should have gotten nothing? Because if you do, that is criminal, and I am sure some stockholders and some attorney generals and some hungry journalists would be very much interested in seeing that proof.

    Do you have any proof that banks were getting kickbacks? Because that too would be illegal, the facts are you don’t have that proof because none exists. You are just repeating some of the misinformation you have picked up in the conservative entertainment complex, and it is all wrong.

    No that is just more right wing media misinformation. Per my previous post, in 2000 congress repealed Glass-Steagall which prevented banks from engaging in the kind of risky activity that resulted in the banking crisis of 2007-2009. Congress originally passed Glass-Steagal some 80 years ago in 1932, preventing banks from engaging in risky activity other than banking, to prevent another great depression.

    Additionally, in 2000 congress passed the Commodities Futures Modernization Act which preempted many state gambling laws making the speculative transactions that led to the banking crisis of 2007-2009 legal. Had congress not done any of the above, there would not have been the banking crisis of 2007-2009 because it would have been illegal, just as it was for the preceeding 70 years. Our neighbors to the north, the Canadians, did not deregulate their banking industry as we did. And their banks were virtually untouched by our banking disaster of a few years ago.

    Now you are using a straw man. I did not absolve banks of their culpability, quite to the contrary. I have and do blame both the banking industry and government for the banking crisis of 2007-2009. In fact, I predicted a crisis when congress repealed Glass-Steagall. But I didn’t expect the house would collapse as fast as it did. I blame the banks and government for the things they actually did versus things they didn’t do.

    If you are fed up, then do something to prevent it from ever happening again rather than shooting yourself in the leg. Get informed, and stay informed. And if you get your information from the conservative media complex, and it appears you do, that spews hate and misinformation all day long every day of the week you will never be adequately informed and will continue to get screwed all the days of your life.

    After getting informed, take the special interest money out of our political system. Special interest money is what allowed the banking industry to write and buy the legislation they wanted from congress. Banking money spent on our congress is what caused congress to reverse Glass-Steagall of 1932, reversing some 80 years of banking stability. In order to fix our political system, we need to ensure voters can and do make well informed decisions at the ballot box.

    If you are talking about the national debt, the national debt never needs to be paid off. The US government has never not been in debt. So your notion that the national debt needs to be paid off at some point in the future is just plain wrong. We have always had debt; we likely will always have debt. Government debt is not like your mortgage or household debt. Our government is not constrained by the frailties of a human life time. So this notion that you or your children or their children will have to pay off the nation’s debt is just fiction. What our children will need to do is manage the national debt, just as we must do, just as our forefathers did. The nation must be able to have sufficient resources available to pay our debt obligations. And there are a couple of things our government can do to manage the national debt, something that neither you nor I can do. The government can raise taxes and there is certainly enough room to raise taxes especially on the wealthy. Taxe rates on the wealthy have come down from a post WW II high of 94% to about a third of that amount (35%) and capital gains which is where most wealthy folks make their money, is only 15%. Additionally, our government can print money to pay its bills – something that neither you nor I can do. And a growing economy and population will require the government to print more money to service the growing economy and population.

    When Republicans took the presidency in 2001, they took a budget surplus and turned it into a multitrillion dollar deficit. When President Obama took office the federal government was well on track for its first multitrillion dollar deficit. Republicans had wasted money on bungled wars, pork riddled entitlement spending (Medicare Part D), and unfunded tax cuts largely for the wealthiest citizens, and an economy in ruins – committing the nation to decades of deficit spending. George II’s first Secretary of the US Treasury resigned in protest to the profligate spending of the George II and his merry band of Republicans.

    Since taking office, President Obama has reduced the nation’s deficit by some 600 billion dollars. But even so the deficit this year is projected to be about 1.1 trillion dollars all of which will wind up as debt. As of now there is no immediate crisis if our government acts responsibly in trimming the deficit while avoiding an austerity program that will cause an economic contraction (i.e. recession). The best solution to our debt and deficit woe is economic growth. Because economic growth means higher tax revenues and lower government expenses (e.g. lower social safety net expenses, unemployment, Medicaid, etc.). Another economic contraction/recession will result in less tax revenue to pay the nation’s bills and more expenses to care for the growing numbers of unemployed and indigent people which would result from an economic contraction/recession. What needs to happen is that we need to contain our deficit spending so that we can control our debt and servicing our debt remains doable without causing unacceptable levels of inflation. That is what our elected officials are now doing in Washington.

    “Debt is crushing those common folks”, just what debt would that be exactly, personal debt or government debt? If it is personal debt, they wouldn’t be in a better place if they lost their jobs in a great depression. If it is government debt, I think I covered that topic.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2012
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  3. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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  5. Xylene Valued Senior Member

    Coming from a small country (New Zealand) which does a pretty good job of looking after itself, I daresay most of the aid-money following a disaster would come from within the state involved. I was just looking at that list of aid-recipient states and wondering if the Federal Government had any further financial obligations following the breakaway of the state...if an independent state was allowed to keep its own tax revenue when it was gathered instead of sending most of it to Washington, I guess it would have plenty to go around.

    The obvious alternative would be to gather all the petitioners together and give them their own state, so they could secede and be happy...

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  7. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    I belive we sent you a significant percentage of aid as well both in the form of money and in the form of emergency workers to assist with resucue and reconstruction efforts
  8. rpenner Fully Wired Valued Senior Member

    It would had been a useful contribution to a conversation had you presented research that supported this belief. Instead of facts, we only got an unsupported and baseless opinion and an attempt to piss off the Kiwis.
  9. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    why do you think that was to piss off the kiwis? they sent us a heap of aid during black sat as well in the form of fire fighters, aircraft (i believe) and other aid. The point wasn't to insult NZ but rather to point out that the smaller you are, the more outside assistance you need. I was one of those on standby to go to christchurch if needed BTW
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2012
  10. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Australia doubles NZ quake help
    ABC News
    Updated Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:53am AEDT

    Australia is doubling the number of rescue experts sent to help in Christchurch, as the scale of New Zealand's disastrous earthquake becomes more apparent.

    Prime minister John Key is warning the death toll of 65 is likely to rise after the 6.3-magnitude quake struck New Zealand's second largest city about 12:50pm local time on Tuesday.

    Helicopters and cranes have already plucked terrified survivors from danger, but more than 100 are still missing after scores of buildings were reduced to rubble within seconds.

    Attorney-General Robert McClelland says a total of 148 Australian Urban Search and Rescue specialists are now being sent to Christchurch at the New Zealand government's request.

    He says 74 specialists were already being deployed from New South Wales, while an additional 74 from Queensland will be sent on Wednesday morning.

    The first 40, along with rescue equipment and supplies, left from the RAAF base at Richmond, in Sydney's north-west, on Tuesday night aboard a C-130 Hercules transport aircraft.

    If the city's airport remains shut the plane will land at the New Zealand air force base at Blenheim.

    A further 34 specialists from NSW are scheduled to leave from Richmond overnight, while the 74 Queensland specialists are due to leave from RAAF Amberley, south-west of Brisbane, aboard a C-17 Globemaster aircraft on Wednesday.

    "These rescue teams are experts at recovering people who are trapped or affected by structural collapse and consist of highly-trained emergency services workers, doctors, engineers and search dogs," Mr McClelland said.

    "They have expert search, rescue, medical, engineering and support capabilities."

    Mr McClelland says the Australian Government remains in regular contact with New Zealand.

    He says two Emergency Management Australia liaison officers are heading to New Zealand to ensure help was provided as quickly as possible.

    "New Zealand was one of the first countries to offer assistance to Australia during the floods crisis and we will continue to do what we can to help our friends across the Tasman through this catastrophe," he said.

    Mr McClelland says Australia will provide more help if asked.

    "We're doing some work to see if they need any additional medical skills, whether they need particular specialities, whether they need additional nursing staff," he said.

    "We're making inquiries of states and they're ready to provide that specialty assistance if we need it and we've offered that to New Zealand as well."

    Earlier, Prime Minister Julia Gillard told Parliament that Australia is in shock over the devastation of the earthquake, and the Government is doing all it can to help.

    "Today our family are suffering a very devastating blow. I'm sure many Australians like me have watched the images on TV today and they have been truly shocking," she said.

    "I had the opportunity to speak to prime minister John Key... and I simply said to him, anything we've got that they need we'll get to them."

    New Zealand's deputy prime minister, Bill English, says there have been several international offers of assistance.

    "We'll be taking those offers where appropriate, particularly where there's relevant expertise in finding people in collapsed buildings," he said.

    "We've also taken up an offer from the Australians for the assistance of further search and rescue personnel."

    Opposition Leader Tony Abbott echoed Ms Gillard's comments.

    "Clearly New Zealand has suffered a devastating earthquake," he said.

    "The bonds of love stretch tight and close across the Tasman and our thoughts and prayers are with the people of New Zealand at this time.

    Ms Gillard says there are no reports of Australian casualties so far, but staff are at the scene to help Australians in need.
  11. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    ^ Oh whats this now? actually news, well call me a fried chicken in a fat guys belly!
  12. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    "If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation...
    to a continuance in union... I have no hesitation in saying,
    'let us separate.'​

    -- by: Thomas Jefferson
    (1743-1826), US Founding Father, drafted the Declaration of Independence, 3rd US President
    Source: letter to W. Crawford, June 20, 1816
  13. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    sure it said 2012 on my calander not 1816 and sure presidents name is obama not jefferson

    What some long dead guy said is irrelivent, the only thing which matters is the attitudes and laws (domestic and internation) in force NOW, not what existed 200 years ago
  14. Promo Registered Senior Member

    So in other words, fuck the constitution. Is that what you're saying?
  15. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    I don’t know what Asguard is trying to say. However, I am sure Asguard is not very familar with the US Constitution and U.S. history.

    Jefferson was one man with Constitutional opinions which happened to be contrary to the opinions of other founding fathers – guys who actually participated in the drafting and ratification of the Constitution like George Washington. Jefferson did not participate in the drafting of the US Constitution. In fact, Jefferson was opposed to the Constitution. Yet conservatives, like Michael, like to point to Jefferson as the sole authority on Constitutional law.

    Jefferson’s notions about secession died with this little thing called the Civil War that cost the lives of some 600k-700k Americans. States do not have the right to secede from the union. And then there is the U.S. Supreme Court ruling, Texas v. White of 1869 which held that the U.S. Constitution did not give states the right to unilaterally secede from the Union.

    Unfortunately conservatives like to point to Jefferson as the sole authority on issues of Constitutional law, totally ignoring the fact that there were many other founding fathers who disagreed with Jefferson and that Jefferson held a minority opinion on the Constitution.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
  16. Rhaedas Valued Senior Member

    I think the main point was that things have changed a little bit since Jefferson said that.
  17. RealityCheck Banned Banned

    Hi Michael. Unless every man, woman and child in a state agrees unanimously, then you would be forcing secession on many in that state. If you say a majority want it so, then the same majority argument of the Union as a whole can be used as argument against a state seceding. You can't hypocritically have it both ways when putting forth arguments based on 'petitions' and 'voters' in a democracy.

    Also, any starting constitution can be interpreted/modified by overwhelming votes/necessity according to current realities. The slavery, economic and voting/dictating demography in the new political process then is way less relevant now. Look around you here and now instead of spieling political slogans without relevance in the new national/global realities, mate. Good luck.
  18. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Would you say that allowing people the freedom of self-determination and the legal right for those people, who populate a State and so vote to secede from the Union to legally do so. That modern day secession is a Progressive, Liberal, Conservative or Neo-Conservative idea?
  19. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    All this is moot, get a state to vote on a referendum to secede, in the highly unlikely event a majority agrees then we can argue about if they should be allowed to secede. But we all know that not going to happen because only a very small minority in any state is demanding secession!
  20. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

  21. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    It's a right wing extremist position. It's not new. These separatists have been around for a very long time. Many of them arm themselves and retreat to an isolated section of the country. Every once in a while one of them gets into a shootout with the federal government when the government tries to enforce a law which they do not recognize.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  22. RealityCheck Banned Banned

    These rightwing/religious lunies are abusing the "self determination" card. It's a DEMOCRACY with laws and privileges arrived at in common majority in diverse populace having many backgrounds and sub-groupings. No particular "victimization" of a particular "state" can be shown that would justify a state rebelling against the Union. If a mere matter of "opinion" of "whingeing" groups who lost a democratic election could justify using the secessionist card, then the same card can be played by every sub-state group, village, town, city and region which has lost local/city etc elections. The democratic nature of the UNION and its non-discriminatory freedoms and responsibilities makes it silly to pretend that "secession" of a state in the modern context is anything but a "wet dream" of sore losers who would impose THEIR tyrannies on those who would disagree with them in a democracy.

    Hypocrites. I bet if the Conservatives had won the election, and some people they disliked had made these petitions to secede, they would have gone in and tried to shoot them as "crazy commies" or " or crazy unbelieving atheists" or something conveniently hatred-filled like that!

    Oh the humanity! Religious hatred, self-deluding ignorance, biblical scale hypocrisy, circle-jerk lunacy and just plain stupidity born of being too lazy to think for themselves, abounds in the conservative camp, as the last two years leading up to the election has shown all over the internet! They can't run and hide anymore. They are exposed and those that they would gull in future will be shown the internet record/videos whenever the conservative rightwingers come a-calling! They have fouled their own nest once too often (just as the cold war communists did with theirs), such that their camp is rotting around them. History shows it.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

    I fully support the freedom and the legal right of every American to leave the US if they don't like it. I'll even give them a hearty handshake and tell them "good luck!" Problem solved.

    I also fully support their right to stay here and whine if they like. Lots of people do that. I will not be shaking their hand, though; I'll be ignoring them and talking to people who work to solve their own problems.

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