Petitions from 20 States Requesting to Secede from the United States

Let me make sure if I have you correct: The Federal Reserve had NO IDEA that the entire world was about to go into what is going to be the worse Depression since the last Great Depression... and you think we should let them continue to run the economy.

Good one Joe.
Real good.

What drove you to come up with this idiotic conclusion? I suppose if you bought some food and were dangerously poisoned - the first thing you'd go is give that Chief even more control over your diet. Isn't that right? Look, YOU can - but I don't want any part of it. In a free-market without Income Tax me and other people (who don't want to bail out the rich) can live our lives without stealing from you - why is it you feel you can steal from me and my family to bailout your buddies on WallStreet? Let me guess: Because we're both "American" and I "use the roads".


These little arse-holes bailed out WallStreet and screwed over MainStreet. That's a simple FACT Joe. Soon they'll be goose-stepping the Cattle back over to the Middle East.


Science is prediction.
—Motto of the Econometrics Society

Those who have knowledge, don’t predict. Those who predict, don’t have knowledge.
—Lao Tzu, sixth-century B.C.

 

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Let me make sure I have you correct: You're position is we should have a mixed economy of State run business as well as some private enterprise? IOWs you think we should be Fascist. Well, lucky you - that's exactly what we are. Which percentage do you suppose we should have? Mostly regulated-market Communism or mostly free-market Capitalism? Sure, I agree, Communism with some level of free-market Capitalism is going to be much better than 100% Communism. Much like a shit burger would probably taste a bit better if it wasn't 100% poop. You know what tastes even better? No poop at all.

Secondly, we do both agree that Communism was a failure - is that correct?
Thirdly, I'm going to assume that 'private enterprise' you think is successful - is that correct?

 

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no poop at all so you mean as far away from libertarians's economic aristoctracy? 100% communism would still be better than a pure free market libertarian state.

 

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Thank the gods I don't live in your world.

Just try and remember Libertarians only make up 0.4% of the electorate. Libertarians are philosophically opposed to the initiation for force, pro-property rights, pro-individual liberty. When you look out your window and find the police coming to goose-step you and/or your family off to fight and die in Iran - you can thank the Progressives and Neo-Conservatives. When you see the rich getting even richer under Obama than they already were, thank you beloved Progressives and Neo-Conservatives.

This total mess of a society we live in - that has nothing at all to do with Libertarian policy, we've never managed to get over 3% of the vote and only, on occasion, see a representative. Nope. Everyone is just like you. They want to use force and shove their bullshit in your face and down your throat. ALL for the Greater Good of Society, which just keeps going from great to greater doesn't it?

 

For starters, the Federal Reserve was not allowed to monitor systemic risk prior to Dodd-Frank, no federal agency was charted to manage the systemic risk in our financial sector that resulted from congressional deregulation of the financial industry in 2000. Neither The Fed nor any federal agency can act unless it has been authorized by congress and they were not authorized by congress.

Additionally, it was not the responsibility of the Federal Reserve to monitor bank solvency. It wasn’t their job. They were not authorized or funded by congress to take on that role. The Comptroller of the Currency is the federal agency authorized to review bank solvency and take them under should they become insolvent.

What caused The Great Recession was not in any way related to The Federal Reserve. What prevented The Great Recession from turning into The Great Depression II were the actions of the Federal Reserve combined with some fiscal assistance from congress.

Science is prediction, but science doesn’t and cannot predict everything. Knowledge is far from perfect. Science is not a crystal ball. Science, geology, cannot predict when the Yellow Stone super volcano will erupt because important information remains unknown. That does not mean geology is any less valid. And what you expect of economics is a crystal ball. What science and economics are good at is making predictions based on inputs. But the sciences are not crystal balls. You don’t seem to understand the difference – just like you have trouble understanding the difference between a rental and a sale.

The rest of your commentary is some ad hominem mixed in with some right wing paranoid demagoguery.

 

You'd prefer a 100% all-bread burger?

The best burgers are a mix of things - capitalism, socialism, communism. Democracy, representative government, oligarchy, meritocracy. Pure extremism never works no matter what the goal of the extremist.

 

"Pure" extremism..... huh?

I noticed you missed out on the economic model called Human Slavery. I mean, you wouldn't want to be to 'Extreme' and not practice Institutionalized Slavery.

See where the logic breaks down? It's like saying extreme chocolate or extreme math. Wouldn't want to follow those math rules too much... could be 'Extreme'.

 

Oh for the love of the Gods Joe.

The Federal Reserve lowered interest rates and together with Bill Clinton and Bush Jr and all the other idiotic despotic 'Leaders' ... oh, I mean Civil 'Servants' marched this economy off a cliff. We're in free fall Joe. Free Fall. The 'Great Recession' is a Great Big Poo Burger of a Lie. As soon as the Federal Reserve destroys the dollar and the USA starts looking a bit more like Greece then this fact is going to come into focus for you.


Oh, in case anyone here misses Joe's point. He's 100% a Progressive. For Joe bailing out the VERY SAME Banks that wrecked our economy was (and is) priority #1. For Progressives, like Joe, it doesn't matter how much debt we have and so it doesn't matter how many bonds on sold on your childrens' labor. That's all perfectly fine. Whatever it takes to keep the BIG BANKS in business destroying our economy. See, for Progressives they look around and the shithole that has become America and think it's wonderful. A Paradise among Nations. Their heads are so far up their own arses they can't see the homeless and destitute their stepping over.


In a Libertarian run world the Banksters stealing from society would have gone to Prison for Fraud. Not so in lovely State-Run Progressive Neo-Con World.
In a Libertarian world there'd be no GoldmanSux or BJ Morgan or BoA, as these banks would have gone bust and the top 1% would have gone bust right along with them.
No so in lovely Fascist Progressive Neo-Con World.

So, the next time you hear a Progressive talking out both sides of their mouths - take a look at who's getting richer and who's getting poorer. Take a look at how much BIGGER these so-called To Big To Fail Banks are getting. Listen to the phases "To Big To Fail" or "The Great Recession" or "War on Terror" - it's called propaganda. The same bankers who tell you to just shut up, it'll all be OK are divesting into everything from Gold and Silver to Farm Land and buying up all the Houses they caused to be underwater in an attempt to lure more suckers in while they shore themselves up.




But, don't worry, these little shenanigans are only going to be able to be carried on for so long - reality is and will catch up. And as much as the Top 1% of Americans that Joe's happy to bailout want to enfeeble, stupefy and make Americans dependent, well, we'll see how that one goes, because when the public finally pulls it fat head out of it's ass and wakes up and seeing what's being done to them... I wouldn't want to be a banker and I wouldn't want to be a politician.

 

Yep. Pure anything is generally a problem.

Nope, slavery is capitalism taken to an extreme (a system where money trumps everything.) A more regulated system, where individual rights AND money are taken into account, is a much better choice.

See how that works?

You just stopped making any sense. FYI.

 

Im down to take the world in peace, and with good grammar. The USA has failed with every other sovereign nation. Nation by nature. Like with like lets go.

You know what would work, gentlemen, is an exodus of Good proportion.

 

Yeah, you don’t like to be troubled with little things like evidence and reason. So you have to resort to ad hominem and mindless demagoguery. In a Libertarian world, those bankers would not be regulated. Because Libertarian’s don’t believe in government or regulations, in the Libertarian world might makes right and the magical free market is always right. There is no need for regulation in the Libertarian world because the market will filter out the corrupt and inept (bankers included). Well that philosophy didn’t work so well this last go around, did it? Bankers were allowed to do whatever they wanted to do. And the banking system came crashing down rather quickly and in spectacular fashion.

Your solution, the Libertarian solution, would have been to let the banks go under and drag the country into a deep and prolonged depression that would have lasted for decades. And then under you Libertarian notions, somehow, magically everything recovers – corruption free and better than before. That is extraordinarily naive and flies in the face of everything we know about economics and human behavior. Libertarianism relies on magic not empiricism. Humans are not going to stop being human because they are in soup lines. A massive prolonged depression is not going to stop humans from being human. Less government regulation is not going to make humans play any nicer and any less licentious.

 

I doubt if it would have lasted that long but at least the bad businesses would have halted there ever ending fail, reward, fail, reward system they established. Every time they would take out the cash and give it away to their cronies they would fail to get that money returned and so went bankrupt then asked for more money to do the scam all over again. I see that your one of them for you as yet never want to shut the banks down that do wrong.

 

The problem with that was that the little people would be dragged down with them when the economic dislocation would hvae been more severe than it was because of keeping things together while we figure out the REFORMS necessary to prevent all the historic/idoelogical/religious/sociopathic behaviours from being 'accepted' because of political conmen who have only their own interests at heart.

If your house is already on fire, it's best to put out the fire and repair as necessary after. Letting it burn down completely will only be an option if there is someone to pay for it (insurance).

But since the economy of a nation has nothing to fall back on but itself, it was prudent to use any means at hand in the emergency and then afterwards do all the necessary reforms/repairs to prevent recurrence.

It is the crooks and political/religious/sociopathic self-interested types that ruin it for everybody. Let's tackle that aspect and then have the luxury to explore any other ways to better the social/democracy approach to middle-way govt local and global.

Good luck to us all in the meantime...because the crooks are still trying to get back into power....as the Romney et al types will not stop until we make it too transparent that their history/methods will not work as they would con the public into believing (again). It was this con that led to the GFC and denial of global warming science and religious hatreds etc etc divisions.

Time to return to sensible reason and good faith treating with all stake holders....and deny the crooks and scammers any toehold in the new reformed way.

Cheers.

 

test

 

I know you Libertarians doubt how bad the resulting depression would be and how prolonged it would be. But the effects of the last great depression resulted in double digit unemployment that lasted for more than a decade and prosperity/employment was only restored with a massive Keynesian intervention in the form of World War II. There is no reason to believe that this depression would have been any less severe if it has not been stopped with government intervention.

Additionally, they didn’t establish a never ending fail and reward system. That is a myth. First, bank stockholders did pay. Stockholders in Bank of America saw their investment in Bank of America go from $40/share to $4/share and so it was with all of the banks. And Bank of America still trades at about $9/share. Investors, equity owners paid heavily for the malfeasance of their managers. Many bank executives lost their jobs. Furthermore, government stepped in and restricted executive bonuses and bank dividend payments until integrity had been sufficiently restored to bank balance sheets. So this notion that no one in the banking industry paid a price is just plain wrong.

Further, Dodd-Frank puts in place regulation to prevent this from ever happening again. And if by some chance it should, it provides a means to dismantle the offending institutions in an orderly fashion. Dodd-Frank didn’t exist before this banking crisis. Up until congress passed substantial deregulation of the banking industry in 2000, reversing the banking restraints put in place by congress some 80 years ago after the Great Depression to prevent another great depression, systemic banking risk was not possible.

Only a few thousand people were involved in the derivative trading that brought the banking industry to its knees and created this mess. But Libertarians would have millions of innocent people suffer for the misdeeds and malfeasance of a few.

Well they didn’t give it to their cronies; the money was loaned to banks. Money was given to no one individual or institution. Money was loaned and assets were purchased, giving the afflicted institutions much needed money so banks could pay depositors. And most of the money loaned to these institutions has been repaid with interest. And a major bank was allowed to collapse, Lehman's. What was not allowed was a disorderly collapse that would have caused massive and prolonged unemployment and wiped out the savings of millions of Americans and busineses.

You are seeing incorrectly, I support Dodd-Frank which provides for the orderly liquidation of banks should we ever get in this situation again. While Libertarians have no concern for the millions of people who would have lost their jobs and fortunes had the banks been forced into a disorderly liquidation as Libertarians have and continue to advocate, I don’t believe that millions of innocent people including many who have yet to be born should pay the horrendous price that would have been inflicted upon them by the few who caused the crisis. I am against a disorderly liquidation that would have caused a deep and prolonged depression and wiped out the savings of millions of individuals and businesses.

 

thats true I live in the real world and you live in a fantasy world that ignores history.

but far more people IN OFFICE rely on libertarian ideas.

we have been over this multiple times what people claim to believe and what they actually do are 2 different things. libertarians can claim what ever the hell they want they are judged according to the result of their beliefs not their hoped for results. also libertarians lie about the whole iniatian of force thing. they just label their their intiatian as "retalitory force" but they love the use of force just as much as the next person they just express it threw different avenues. secondly libertarians aren't for personal liberty they are for unchecked expression of economic power not the same thing and the define freedom pretty much as unchecked economic power. most people recognize freedom is more than the use of economic power and when it comes to anything outside of that libertarians fair very poorly.

again please quit lying about what progressives believe. if and when those things happen it will be because of neo-conservatives and libertarians in their fascism not progressives. progressives believe in freedom in all possible ways. we are one of the only ideologies that is steadfastly anti corporate power. the only times progressives have ever benefits corporations or the wealthy is when to not do anything or the mechinism of progressive beliefs are thawrted.

This total mess of a society we live in - that has nothing at all to do with Libertarian policy, we've never managed to get over 3% of the vote and only, on occasion, see a representative.[/QUOTE] what about all the votes for the libertarian inspired republican party which uses libertarian ideas as the basis for it disastorous policies? you focus on party and not on who uses the ideology is telling.

nope un true all this shit is the result of neo conservative, fascist, libertarian pro corporate power policies. I don't why I keep trying to educate you woefully ignorant libertarians the closest analogue for you is the modern american protestants in the south and they are just as incapable of dealing with the real world as you.

 

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I didn't even know my state was involved and had the signatures already. Hopefully if there is a succession we have the chance to rejoin later if it don't work out. I saw Alabama, Georgia, and Florida among other states.. Wonder what will happen if they are allowed to leave. Will there be a new combined union of states?

 

I'm pretty sure the civil war kinda end with it isn't legal to leave the union

 

I'm talking about who the banks gave all the money out to. They gave it out to people, their cronies, who should never had gotten anything . However the banks were getting kick backs from their cronies and when they went under, due to mismanagement , they were again given huge bailouts and gave themselves raises for doing all the wrong things.

The government had already put into place laws governing the banks but the REGULATORS turned their backs as to what the banks were up to and never made the banks stop making bad, illegal or wrong loans. That started way back in the 1980's under Reagan if you'll recall. But again you don't want to blame the banks or the Federal Government for wrongdoing but just want to bail them out every time the banks do this illegal lending then fail then bailout routine.

I'm fed up with it all and see why you like what is being done to all those common people out there for they don't care about being used up and spit out at all. If anyone tries to put an end to this illegal activity they are the ones arrested and locked up. The common people don't really understand what is going on with people like yourself taking sides, allegedly , with them , telling them they won't get hurt because big brother is there to rescue them time after time. Problem is the debt is crushing those common folks who will take many generations to pay off all that debt.

 

Yes, banks make money. But, if you are talking about 2008 TARP fund, when the government invested money in those banks, they generally made money on the deal. See Table 2 on page 5 of http://www.treasury.gov/initiatives...orts/Documents/August 2012 Monthly Report.pdf where the estimated total lifetime cost of all the Bank Support programs comes out to be negative net cost -- or positive profit. If you don't like projections, look at Table 1 on page 3 where $ 245.10 billion was disbursed and while $3.04 billion of that was written off as unrecoverable and $10.16 billion remains to be repaid, already the government has gotten $265.72 billion back. No need to wait for the certified final tally, the numbers already indicate that program was no net cash expenditure.