Petitions from 20 States Requesting to Secede from the United States

Discussion in 'Politics' started by madanthonywayne, Nov 12, 2012.

  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    20,285
    I'm no friend of the bankers. Donald Trump is a douche AFAIAK. You can blame your beloved government for bailing them out. That is NOT free-market Capitalism. In a free-market the banks who made bad loans would have gone bust. IF you had an insured deposit, it'd be you paying a private insurance company for that insurance not a federal agency (big surprise the government dropped the ball yet again). Look, Australia has generally had a big government and has generally been a poor country that simply doesn't compete and produce much. NOT because of any fault of Australians themselves - it's their socialistic government crushing any ounce of entrepreneurial spirit. Most entrepreneurs in AU that I personally know, moved to the USA (California mainly). Much like KSA, when the commodities are booming AU gets to live in an illusion of prosperity. But, don't mistake the illusion for the real thing. Again, look around your house and see how much of that was produced in AU. Not much I'm afraid to say - and it's only getting worse. AU competitiveness is dropping and has been doing so for years.



    That aside, if the government does produce something, let's say cars, then that's called fascism. Fascism isn't as productive as free-market Capitalism. It's no better than other State run industries. Sorry, but paying someone in the government to stamp a peace of paper isn't producing anything. That's taking from the producing part of society. You do understand that yes? The government can instantly employ everyone today stamping papers and handing them to the next in a long line the ends in a shredder - that simply doesn't make society any more productive. When government does try to do something, there's no market feed back telling it if what it's doing is good or bad. Thus, it's up to some idiot who lives in a box in Canberra (or DC) to guess. Hence the more socialist countries (like AU) have lower Civil Liberties as this reduces the variables and makes the guessing game a bit more accurate. This is why Communist countries have the least Civil Liberties (reduce the variables). It's all an attempt by the government to make a best-guess. But, the free-market will always do this better and dollars (real dollars) are our way of voting for what we really do want or not want.


    Wait until the boom completely fizzles out - mark my words, AU is going to start reducing variables along with social services.
     
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  3. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    God you live in la la land, Lets look at it logically. Telstra, government owned and operated telecommunications company sold and industry deregulated, prices imidiatly rise, shares crash and services cut

    Electricity sold and deregulated, prices rise and infrastructure left to decay leading to the Black Sat Bushfires

    etc etc

    In no case has it caused prices to fall, its caused prices to rise and services to be cut in every case

    How about you actually BACK UP your propergander
     
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  5. Rhaedas Valued Senior Member

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    1,516
    'Big Government' is another one of those labels thrown around by both sides to scare people. Size isn't the issue, the government should be the size it needs to be to get the job of governing done. It's efficiency that's the key, and we all know the joke about government and efficiency, don't we? But it's much easier to point the finger at the other guy and say he's for Big Government. Bush grew his government just as much as other administrations have, a big chunk of his job creation was public. But wait, he was on the Republican side, so I guess that's different.
     
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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    36,567
    Apples

    Apples.

    New York is the largest American grower of apples, last I heard. Garment production, railroad stock, some automotive (line buses), ceramics, tech, and photographic equipment. Communication is, of course, a large industry in the Empire State, and there is a lot of printing and publishing. By and large, though, I think economic abstraction is probably the state's largest produce.

    One thing that puzzles me about your outlook, though, is that there is an apparent disconnection between your complaints and solutions. That is, sure, there are plenty who disdain the financial shenanigans that keep our society afloat, but without them, our quality of life would be much reduced. Indeed, it seems the communists had a point about American decadence, but that's not an argument they're going to win.

    Where the communists failed was in not having any viable alternatives. Currency competition certainly has aesthetic appeal, but the underlying element that humanity lacks is the altruism that both the communist and libertarian alike require for fulfillment of their outlooks. Even I, who named my daughter after Anarchists, am aware that the left wing, while very good at documenting the problems, isn't nearly so adept at conceiving and providing solutions. In the end, this is a problem we share. Either of our outlooks requires altruism that is nice to hope for, but in reality is not evident in the way things work.

    As with secession; no new national government that forms in the modern era will be free from the self-centered special interests. This is a messy aspect of democracy; despite our best hopes, those who thrive on human suffering will continue to wield influence. Otherwise, we enter a cycle in which the risk analysis becomes a matter of caprice. There are, after all, plenty of people in our society who think free religion is a scourge, that equality means supremacism, and would have us believe that everything will be okay if we just return to ancient standards devised for another time and place. In an economic consideration, it's well enough to declare an end to shenanigans, but at some point the auto da fé will see car dealers and lawyers led to the pyres. Human history makes clear that you cannot contain an idea to its specific, intended applications.

    Prosperity and sanity are not, in the grand scheme, ultimately irreconcilable. But there is a tremendous gap between the standard of life we Americans enjoy and the altruism we hope and pray for.
     
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    36,567
    Perry Sez ....

    Perry Sez ....

    It almost reminds me of when we started the SFOG subforum here at Sciforums. The secession petitions are now coming in from thirty states, and there are now counterpetitions for the revocation of citizenship of those signing the secession petitions.

    The saying, "This is why we can't have nice things," also comes to mind. This back-and-forth is a waste of the White House outreach, but such are the priorities of some Americans.

    A Texas-based petition apparently has drawn sixty thousand signatures, enough to prompt Governor Rick Perry to weigh in. While the former GOP candidate for the presidential nomination has in the past flirted with the idea of the Lone Star State seceding from the Union, this time he's having none of it.

    Texas Gov. Rick Perry does not stand behind a secession petition filed with the White House by a Lone Star State resident in the aftermath of the presidential election.

    The Dallas Morning News reports that the Republican governor's press secretary, Catherine Frazier, said in an email that Perry "believes in the greatness of our Union and nothing should be done to change it." She added, "But he also shares the frustrations many Americans have with our federal government. Now more than ever our country needs strong leadership from states like Texas, that are making tough decisions to live within their means, keep taxes low and provide opportunities to job creators so their citizens can provide for their families and prosper."


    (Siegel)

    Given Perry's unreliability on the issue, it is unclear whether his statement will have any effect on the petition's support.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Siegel, Elyse. "Rick Perry Takes Stand On Texas Secession Issue". The Huffington Post. November 12, 2012. HuffingtonPost.com. November 13, 2012. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/12/rick-perry-secession_n_2120453.html
     
  9. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    18,523
    OH COME ON! there is no chance in hell this is going to go anywhere, stop talking about it will make it go away faster!
     
  10. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Oh I don't know about pride. How many elections has Florida screwed up in recent years? This year they had people in waiting in line for 7+ hours just to cast a vote and then their Republican governor thinks waits of up to 4 hours are ok. And then it has taken them a week to count the votes. Arizona hasn't finished counting votes yet. And Texas, well aside from an oversized ego, what has Texas contributed to the union? Well we all know what happened to President Kennedy in Texas. Texas attempted to secede with the South. Then they got their tails kicked out of Kansas for being bores and spreading cattle diseases.

    On a more serious note, this is just more of what Republican Governor Jindal has called dumbed down conservatism. It is also clear that those signing the petitions have signed multiple petitions thus overstating the numbers of individuals involved.

    Let the Conservative/Republican drama games begin!
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2012
  11. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    12,738
    For every state wanting to secede, there is another wanting to join.
    Mexico for example.
    It's a bit large for a single state.
    Perhaps it could join as three states.

    How long then before the US gets a Mexican POTUS?
     
  12. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    You're going to use Telstra as your example?!?

    Ha!

    Telstra sucks. I remember the first time I called to have a phone line turned on.... just turned on, over $120! Not only that, but get this. When I called from work (it was a Friday) and I asked how long it would take (thinking it'd be turned on within the hour or so) and they guy said "Look mate, I play golf on Fridays" and hung up! It took WEEKS

    Admittedly, this was 12 years ago and the company has much better service now, but give me a break.


    Secondly, all you see is Telstra, what you don't see is everything that wasn't paid for because money was wasted on an inefficient phone monopoly. Like all the school book and school swimming pools and university resources. See, this is why it's so easy to be fooled into thinking you've gained when in reality you lost.

    Why is DO YOU THINK that the government privatized Telstra? Maybe because they KNEW it sucked? You think the government is going to let a cash cow go? No way. It was hemorrhaging money.


    What are you talking about? Australia is nearly a State run monopoly. All that 'decay' happens because there's no private ownership and competition to keep these services up.



    Take the so-called "Free" medical insurance in Australia. You know what's now happened? Australians are actually getting LESS healthy. They're getting more obese and there's no economic incentive to prevent them from way OVER using this 'Free' service. It's really quit similar to an exploitation of the Commons come to think of it. I was talking with a cardiac specialist the other day and she told me she hadn't seen a patient under 100Kg ....EVER. And one patient told her flat out: I'll eat and drink what I want, and you'll fix me. So shove it. (when told he needed to diet). This man alone is costing hundreds of thousands.

    In a free-market he'd be paying a lot more for health insurance and because of the 10s of thousands of people like him who could do something to improve their health but refuse to do so - the next generation will have less. That's a fact.
     
  13. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, of course, the bankers and managers contribute nothing!!!! All power to the proletariate!!!! Meanwhile, your own article acknowledges that it is basically nothing but a political screed.

     
  14. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    36,567
    This and That

    Yes, and also no. That is, we can chuckle at petitions from Vermont and Oregon all we want. In Oregon, even more than Washington, if the east wanted out, the west has even less reason to encourage them to stay. But Oregon isn't going anywhere, and some of these folks are simply venting. It's the kind of thing they'll be embarrassed about in five years. You know, down at the pub, everyone will give Bob shit about it: Remember that time you signed a secession petition? That's on par with the time he fell in love with the fat hooker on his twenty-first birthday.

    But in other places, simply dusting these folks off will only piss them off more. Texas is a great example. It's like telling a teenager how cute his angst-driven outrage is. It's patronizing to them in a way that won't go over well. If people tell them they're full of shit, they'll only be more determined to push the cause. If people shrug and say, “Go ahead, leave,” they will.

    The biggest argument against Michigan leaving, for instance, is that the Wolverines will never again win the BCS National Championship. The biggest argument against Texas leaving is that within fifty years it will be part of Mexico. In other words, sure, some people are pissed off in Michigan, but give them time and they'll come around to be reasonable. That's something of a gamble with Texas, though. Let it fester, and the disease will demand some sort of treatment.

    With Texas, it's like the petty argument with a girlfriend that ends up with someone going to jail for domestic violence. Escalation is easy enough an accident.

    • • •​

    Well, yeah, but what president wants to be known for letting the Union fracture? What congressman is going to vote for it? I really am of the opinion that if certain states left, the Union would not simply do fine, but actually do better for not having to carry their larded asses.

    There is a certain amount of ignorance inherent to conservatism, just as there is a certain degree of petulance about liberalism.

    True, conservatism needs to do something about its incredibly inflated stupid coefficient, but it can never trim that factor down to one. This is demonstrable in the nature of the political rhetoric. The best of liberalism is often complicated compared to its period in history. To wit, trying to explain to a white Southerner how the liberation of slaves would make the society stronger must have been quite the exercise in head versus wall. On the conservative side, though, the response is easy enough because it is simplistic: They're coming for your wallet! They're coming for your children! They're coming for your Bible! They're coming for your guns!

    When fear dependent on ignorance is so powerful a rally cry, it is hard to extinguish the appeal to stupidity.

    For instance, as Pam Stenzel explained to her fellow conservative Christians in 2003, it doesn't matter if it works or not:

    At Reclaiming America for Christ, Stenzel told her audience about a conversation she'd had with a skeptical businessman on an airplane. The man had asked about abstinence education's success rate, a question she regarded as risible.

    "What he's asking," she said, "is 'does it work?' You know what? Doesn't matter. 'Cause guess what? My job is not to keep teenagers from having sex. The public school's job should not be to keep teens from having sex."

    Then her voice rose and turned angry as she shouted, "Our job should be to tell kids the truth!" And I should say that up 'til then, I agreed with her. But here's what she means by the truth:

    "People of God," she cried, "can I beg you to commit yourself to truth? Not what works, to truth! I don't care if it works, because at the end of the day, I'm not answering to you. I'm answering to God.

    "Let me tell you something, People of God, that is radical, and I can only say it here," she said. "AIDS is not the enemy. HPV and a hysterectomy at twenty is not the enemy. An unplanned pregnancy is not the enemy. My child believing that they can shake their fist in the face of a holy God and sin without consequence, and my child spending eternity separated from God, is the enemy! I will not teach my child that they can sin safely!"

    And Stenzel was part of the Bush administration's abstinence education task force at HHS. Her company makes money pushing abstinence education to teenagers; of course she doesn't care if it works or not. But think of the effect. Condoms in schools? That will lead to teenagers (gasp!) having sex! Birth control pills through school health facilities? That will lead to teenagers (gasp!) having sex! Sex education? That will lead to teenagers (gasp!) having sex! Sure, it doesn't work, but the fear-based argument is very potent. I mean, to take the Republican primary seriously, protecting young women against viral infection that leads to cervical cancer will lead to teenagers (gasp!) having sex! The fear relies on ignorance. Ignorance is presently, and has been for generations, integral to the conservative argument.

    Liberal appeals to fear are just confusing. I mean, sure, it wasn't just liberals who saw the financial collapse coming; many libertarians and even some conservative economists could see it coming, too. But shouting about American decadence just never made sense to anyone who wasn't a liberal. And, really, appeals to fear don't work if the outcome is that you don't get to kick someone's ass. It was, after all, the liberal “terrorist sympathizers” who correctly suggested that our wars in the Middle East would be problematic quagmires. And what did it take for conservatives to agree? A Democrat in the White House.

    The conservative argument presently requires an excessive stupid coefficient. This is not a quandary I envy of my Republican neighbors. And as we're all in it together, I can only wish them luck. Perhaps I might even think of a few suggestions along the way, but I doubt they'll listen. This one is theirs to figure out. If you are the praying type, then pray for them.

    Actually, let them end as quickly as possible. This is, to a certain degree, a predictable flurry of outrage and recrimination; losing parties always go through this eventually if they keep losing long enough. And they do have something to learn about the epistemic closure of the conservative information industry, to be certain. The sooner they figure it out, the better.
     
  15. Buddha12 Valued Senior Member

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    2,862
    Look out — the petition wars are on! After people in more than 20 states submitted petitions asking to secede from the union in the wake of the election, the other side has hit back with a seemingly tongue-in-cheek response of, "if you don't like it, leave." On Monday, someone called "Douglas H." of Escondido, Calif., filed a petition against the secessionist movement at the White House website, asking that everyone who signed the petitions be "peacefully deported." The deportation initiative has gone rabidly viral too, with amused Twitter users taunting, jeering, and signing away. It's like 1861 all over again around here.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/sec...petition-demands-deportation-of-secessionists
     
  16. RealityCheck Banned Banned

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    800
    Hi Michael.

    As with all such things, it's complicated. While Liberal-conservative govts saw such 'services' as potential money-spinners for their mates 'in business', they did all they could to sabotage and talk-down the value/services so that they could sell it off. Once this ethos spread to the Labour govts too, the writing was on the wall for this and other public assets/businesses because they could sell them and cover their budget shortages etc. Either way, whether liberals selling so mates can buy in and make money, or whether selling to make up for budget shortfallls etc, public assets are always on a knife edge even if they ARE profitable and efficient etc. It is ideology rather than prper management/responsiveness etc which has proved the undoing of many a good 'natural monopoly' which govts should have kept even just under the principle of "economy of scale" and national standards etc. There are natural monopolies which are only fully appreciated when the shit hits the fan. Like armed forces and police/emergency etc etc etc. The health system is broken because of "entrepreneurial" doctors and "health funds" which keep the cream and let the rest be handled by the state. If all were handled by the state then such "cherrypicking" would not be available for "private enterprise" which only has the most lucrative and lets the rest be "socialised". Just like when bankers go belly-up, it's no longer a dirty word that govts bail them out. But as soon as they are back on their feet, they are again badmouthing gots and socialism etc etc. Hypocrites and 'skimmers' are all they are. If they had to handle the full cross-section of the 'market/clientelle', they would not be so 'profitable' and would not be able to cro about "efficient practice" when they cannot "socialize" that part of their costs/clientelle" they conveniently exclude for prfit-margin reasons, but which a govt cannot exclude for humanitarian reasons.

    Look at all the aspects, not just those convenient to your ideological preconclusions. Cheers!
     
  17. RealityCheck Banned Banned

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    800
    They contribute only if the national/client interest is put before/equal-to corporate/executive profit/advantage. We have seen what happens and what they 'contribute' when things go terribly wrong. GFC and political lies from members fronting for criminals and profiteers who brought us the GFC and high cost of disruption/poverty it has caused worldwide.

    No proletariat or banker should be immune from scrutiny as to what they actually 'contribute' according to their means and opportunities afforded to them in and by the society. Without that social framework/contract, no-one would benefit and each would be on his own, including corporations which depend on law and order and govts enforcing contractual obligations between companies and individuals etc.

    So please do not take the obviously spurious view that corporations are blameless and are the only ones who contribute/benefit sociey/people. It takes EVERYONE to tango according to social contracts FIRST, and business contracts SECOND. Else where is humanity and law and order and all those things which even corporations depend on govts for if they are to thrive?

    Just fodder for some further cogitation on all 'sides'. Cheers!
     
  18. Xylene Valued Senior Member

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    1,398
    OK, so these states have just broken away, and there's an emergency of some kind in one of these territories (tornado, earthquake, major flood etc) and suddenly you have people squawking for aid of all sorts...does the Federal Government have an automatic obligation to come and help an independent state whose people have just told Washington to get knotted?
     
  19. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    We now have petitions from 40 states, many of which are already over the 25,000 threshold and a total of over 500,000 signatures.
     
  20. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    LOL, if you guys can't win a national election, which you cannot, if you cannot even get the leaders of your party to go along with your bizzarre demands, how seriously should you guys be taken? Not very seriously. Limbaugh has about 9 million listeners/dittoheads. And given the fact that you like to sign each others petitions even though you are not residents of that state, so one person can sign as many as 50 petitions, I would expect you will rather quickly get to 450 million signatures representing only about 9 million people or less than 3% of the population. There are about 311 million people in this country and fortunately not everyone in this country is an idiot. You will have more signatures than we have people

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    . You gotta love it.

    You guys are going to make a lot of comedians happy and wealthy.

    http://www.conunderground.com/rushs-eib-stuck-on-stupid-and-secessation/
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2012
  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I wonder, why is it do you think that all this 'Economy of Scale' failed in Communist China? Why were/are the National industries horribly run - ALL of them. Why do you suppose that is? Why is it, do you suppose, that as the standard of living in China rises - there's so much nostalgia for the "Good Ol'e Days" ... back when eating was a luxury.
     
  22. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    20,285
    Where do you think this 'Aid' comes from? Why wouldn't the State have this "Aid" inside *gasp* the State. What? You think all this "Aid" is stored somewhere in D.C.???


    We've been living so long with public institutions usurping the role of private community based institutions that people are shocked anyone can do anything for themselves at all! What's going to happen is people are going to see just how much BETTER local private institution run things compared with bloated public government poorly-run 'services'. A classic example is homeschooling in the USA. Secular homeschooling is a much better option for many children compared with the local Government School.
     
  23. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    20,285
    That last bit is coming to an end.

    IMO these shenanigans are SINKING our country. It's a testament to American can-do entrepreneurial spirit that we can still move along relatively swiftly with all freeloaders trying to get a free ride - but as they say, there is a straw too many that breaks the camels back. And this is the thing, I think when it happens - it's going to happen quickly and everyone will be an expert the next day.

    Our economy was pretty much started as Libertarian minarchical. Small government, private banks, etc... and this is the thing, the free-market IS society. Voluntarism IS society. Anything other than this is a return to the jungle. In a free market both people must gain in a trade - or else the trade would not take place.

    The economic side of Libertarianism is the Austrian school of economics - and they were warning for year up until the GFC and are still warning us we're going into a massive Depression. The Keynsians OTOH (as the minutes at the Federal Reserve testify to) were completely blind to the disaster that lay ahead. In a normal world people would have pulled these idiots out and replaced them with the people who were right. Instead we just handed over the keys to the safe and these crooks, as quickly and quietly as they could, bailed out all their buddies on WallStreet.

    You can blame them for this mess and the one we're about to enter.
    As I've said before, it's not possible to paint a picture of the future. No one can do that. Anyone who says they can is either deluded or lying. What we can do it identify through ethics the moral way to act as humans. Then build up from there.

    We teach children not to steal, how about we try living up to that standard?
    We teach children not to punch, how about we try that advice?
    We teach children not to lie, how about we give that a go?

    This means no income tax, no 30 year bond sales, no forced currency.


    If you live in a community that can make it's own currency - why is it you're so worried about that 1 in 1000000 that might try and steal from you? What is it they're stealing? Right now the government is literally stealing 3-4 months of a labors labor every single year. Surfs paid less than half that! Not to mention the work load and lost opportunity. Have you LOOKED at the ungodly polluting machine of waste that is the US Military? The Capital that thing wasted along could have cured aging by now.
     

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