Perpetual motion, mainly debunking

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by elte, Oct 1, 2020.

  1. elte Valued Senior Member

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    Someone put up a video of construction of a motor armature, loudspeaker, and fan blade "perpetual motion" machine that allegedly blows air (doing work). I wonder what trick is hiding in this set-up. I've pretty much ruled out that a fan concealed off screen is blowing on the assembly's fan blades to keep the rotation going

     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2020
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  3. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

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    Dozens of other toy examples, different arrangements of the approach or scheme (or faux play on it?)
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtM_TZDZI5iVBV6zVC811QQ/videos

    "It is running purely on the magnet arrangement. However, the generation of electric energy is not continuous because the Neodymium magnets lose their magnetic property due to aging."

    Do free energy magnetic motors really work?
    https://www.coffeetablescience.com/2014/08/do-free-energy-magnetic-motors-really.html000

    "But in reality, it is the magnetic energy that is being used to put the motor into motion and over a period of time, the magnets will lose their magnetism and the motor will stop. But again, all one needs to do is replace the magnets and the motor will be workable once again. There is some work that has been put into the type of magnets that can be used for such motors and Neodymium magnets have been claimed to offer the best results. "

    Of course, getting published means little these days what with peer review being a joke even when it exists, the predatory journals, careers and funding revolving around "publish or perish" desperation, research integrity compromised, business and political ideology influence, replication crisis, etc. Thus:

    EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN AND OPTIMIZATION OF FREE ENERGY GENERATOR BY USING NEODYMIUM MAGNETS
    https://www.researchgate.net/public...e_Energy_Generator_by_using_Neodymium_Magnets

    Couple of skeptic discussions about this or that toy below. In one of them, a few(?) members might have actually tried it later themselves rather than indulging in lounge-chair lecturing. Not sure, since I just glanced through the threads...

    https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/earth-engine-permanent-magnet-power-generator/

    https://www.skepticforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=28139
     
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  5. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Waste of time trying to analyse a YouTube video. They are never clear and you can't tell if they are even honestly done.

    You need a written description and diagrams.
     
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  7. elte Valued Senior Member

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    That second one in his displayed list of videos could have something underneath the table that generates a 60Hz magnetic field that's exiting the coils of the motor stator to the right of the small fan motor.
     
  8. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    I am not positive without doing some checking, but I don't think you can use permanent magnets to power a motor at all, never mind running them down. You need an electromagnet (with battery) in there somewhere.
     
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  9. elte Valued Senior Member

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    A thing about that one in my first post occurred to me. There could be some batteries underneath that loudspeaker.
     
  10. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

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    Yah, it's not rocket equipment and CPU design or a trip to Hoia-Baciu Forest, so a hobbyist who already has the materials on hand simply needs to replicate that video example or another one (including any hand activity or inputted work action to initialize its motion). The detailed results wouldn't satisfy all online readers, but any individuals who are really that curious can settle the matter for themselves.

    The issue of "perpetual motion" itself is a pre-set negative and not even espoused by the (mitigated) detractors who have (or posture to have) familiarity with doing the above. So it's a matter of whether the supposed, basic scheme actually functions at all in a limited way.
     
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  11. elte Valued Senior Member

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    I think there are possibly some good science fair projects to try out.

    -------

    Hmm, just found research on something appearing close to perpetual motion, Brownian motion, specifically. Basically capturing ambient energy by using diodes.

    https://phys.org/news/2020-10-physicists-circuit-limitless-power-graphene.amp
     
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  12. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    This is rather interesting and puzzling. Thibado explains that this device experiences what he terms a "Brownian current" which does not cause any net heating effect. I suppose the analogy is that the smoke particles in Brown's original demonstration have work done on them by the molecules, just as the molecules are continually doing work on one another, i.e. energy exchange is continually taking place within the Boltzmann distribution and the smoke particles become part of that distribution, as they are thermal equilibrium with it.

    So presumably this current is also in thermal equilibrium with the graphene and is simply a channelling of random thermal electron motions.

    What I can't follow however, is his assertion that they have "re-routed" random thermal current flows into an ordered form, allowing energy to be extracted. That does seem to me to violate the 2nd Law, as it seem to involve entropy reduction. By the same token, it seems to violate it because if you can extract energy from thermal motion in this way you have a heat engine without any rejection of waste heat to a heat sink. Hmm - itchy beard time.

    I look forward to someone publishing a more detailed analysis of what is going on here. As things stand, I'm afraid I do not believe in the promise of limitless power from a heat source with no heat sink. There is something wrong.
     
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  13. elte Valued Senior Member

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    I had a hunch that building the set-up into an integrated circuit would tend to cool it slightly.
     
  14. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Why and what difference would that make? It would still be an alleged source of power, derived from ambient from heat but with no sink.

    I suspect the key may be that the current they get to flow is one with no potential difference driving it, i.e. it is just statistical drift modified by the diodes into unidirectional flow. In which case no power can be extracted from it (Vi=0). But I could be wrong.
     
  15. elte Valued Senior Member

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    Could I have been thinking opposite of the actual, and the device package could warm slightly? In that case, the brownian motion energy harvester would cool while the device's surrounding package would be the heatsink.
     

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