Recently a friend and i were discussing Pearl Harbor. He is into conspiracies so naturally he thinks it was known and allowed to happen. Decades after the event these claims are easy to make and most people are not even alive to defend their positions as witnesses plus it sell books, movies and dvd's etc. The theory is that it was allowed to happen so U.S would get into WW2. But if you knew of an attack of that magnitude was going to happen would the logical thing to do is wait for it to come and fight back? At that point there would be casualties on both sides and fighting back would be much more beneficial than just pretending you never knew about it. Plus the attack alone would mean you are in the war full stop anyway so how does it even make sense?:shrug: Note: For this thread lets discuss it on the merits, events, psychology and tactics behind it and not on ideology or other abstract unrelated views.
Heh, many threads already about this. I am constantly seeing more and more "tertiary reinforcement" of the theory of prior knowledge. I'm watching Battle 360 no history channel right now and Halsey had ordered the Enterprise to be combat ready - days before Pearl. I just roll my eyes.
But there was already a war that involved many countries and some far beyond Europe. And of course U.S allies were being effected. What is strange about that order? In addition, that seems to go to the heart of conspiracies. You can always point to something and find a connection that has no connection at all. If nothing had happened that would have just been a normal thing to do.
the fact is that the japanese bombed, strafed, and torpedoed everything in sight. other than that i would be speculating. the supposed motivation was the sanctions the US placed against japan for invading china.
That Japan was pushed to a limit and likely to do something was common knowledge. That they could pull off an attack like that was probably a genuine surprise. There are always conspiracies, real ones. But the conspirators don't necessarily have as much control of events as they think.
The US claimed to be neutral yet interfered with Japanese trade & shipping. Japan tried diplomacy in vain. The US declared war on Japan, for all practical purposes. Anyone with any sense had to know some awful retaliation was coming. WHY would anyone be surprised they could pull it off??? Conspiracy is 1 of the things humans do best & it comes quite naturally. They're usually secret & sometimes remain so for long after. US government is full of conspiracy, lies & secrets. WHY would anyone think otherwise. WHY is it so unbelievable that the President and/or others in government would conspire, lie & sacrifice lives to achieve their agenda???
Japan was allied with Nazi's. Seems understandable that U.S may have interfered with trade and shipping that supported their war effort. How do you know this anyway? Did you read the OP?
They were trying to conquer parts of China (esp stuff like the big coal fields near Shanxi) and be imperial in Indochina, and the US was cutting off their oil supply and choking them back (the US had been supplying well over 2/3 of Japan's oil ).
It is obvious that the US government KNEW about the coming attack. The Japanese actually got LUCKY on that day. Anyone who studies the FACTS can come to the same conclusion. -The warning messages on the day were deliberately sent through the civil system instead of the military information system thus came late. - The radar system was brand new but the soldiers missidentified the incoming planes. -The carriers were not at the harbour.Their loss would have been the real damage. -The minisub discovered in the morning didn't ring any alarm bells. -The US government was warned months before the attack of the possibility. - The sinking of Arizona was a lucky shot, giving half of the US casualties. - The attack actually didn't cause any long term damage, max. 6 months. The government was logically assuming that in case of an attack there would be a fair battle with even casualties. The lucky bomb that sank the Arizona and the missuse of the radar provided the Japanese with a big victory. If they had had 30 minutes more warning, most of the planes would have got in the air and the ships moving, thus much less damage on the US side and more casalties on the Japanese side. Still it would have provided the US with the casus beli. So it is not conspiracy, it is history. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Interestingly all the entering of the 3 big wars of the US in the 20th century were based on lies...
the japanese more or less started WW2 not Hitler.. he joined in the japanese had already slaughtered hundred of thousands before adolf invaded poland
airplane transponders hadn't been invented yet. the operator could not tell a japanese aircraft from an american one. the radar operator identified the planes but was told by his commanding officer they were american coming from the coast. even if the carriers were there people would still scream "conspiracy" because having ALL of our fleet in one place would be a little convenient. wasn't aware one was/ warned by who? somehow the word "luck" just doesn't fit with "conspiracy" only because the attack occured in a harbor. if it occured in deep water every one of those torpedoed ships would have been lost. is there ANY part of america that you don't loath?
I know, so?? Had they been a little more alert or if there hadn't been a group of American planes out (so they can be mistaken for, luck again) history could be different. That would have been incompetence. This way it is a better conspiracy because the valuable ships were removed from the location. If I recall one was actually late, so again, luck on the Japanese side. You might want to study history, but I already said that. A good history book and google is your friend. You didn't get the point. My point was that the US government expected a decent battle, but since the Japs got lucky, they had a much bigger victory instead of a draw... Is there any part of HISTORY that you actually know? Read up on the Lusitania... also the Tonkin Gulf accident where a mysterious bamboo ship attacked(???) an American navy ship??? Since then it is ACKNOWLEDGED that this attack NEVER happened...
The enterprise was heading to mid way because of the fact that it was thought that if Japan was going to attack the US it would be at midway, which leads me to my other question, why were the battleships and destroyers lined up so perfectly for the Japanese bombers, they were in lines for inspection. My theory is that they were being inspected to make sure they were combat ready for midway and after a week or so would have set off for midway. Doesnt it seem logical to inspect your ships before setting them to sea? Also what none of the conspirators answer is how did the USA know?
You know far to little about radar operation to make this arguement. The appearance of the planes on radar was relayed to a switchboard commander by the radar crew. While driving to work before dawn the operator heard the radio with hawaiian music on during the drive. A B-16 bomber pilot told him tht the only time they play the radio at night was because the bombers were coming to the airfield and needed some sort of signal to lock on to, to direct them to Pearl. He heard about planes on teh radar, knew that american bombers were coming, put the two facts together and figured it was American planes. The message was sent through a civil system because the phone at the radar sation was broken. The carriers were heading for midway for a suspected battle, thats why the ships were lined up for inspection. Yes you know what every government is told of the possibility of attack if an enemy country so much as turns on the gas for their armoured vehicles, it could be an exercise, not necessarily all out war. And countries cannot afford to start wars on a misunderstanding.
The Enterprise was on a training cruise, I believe. The ships were lined up that way because it was peace time and the anchorage there is limited (I've seen it). It was, in other words, standard operating procedure, given size and space requirements. After the bombings, this was changed. Plus, with the war on, it was unlikely that that many ships were ever in port again together.
Those ships were lined up for inspection, think about it, you want to inspect as many as you can in as little time as possible, so why not line them up in two little neat rows so they are as close together as possible?
I ALREADY addressed this by saying the Japs got lucky. Imagine if there is a different person incharge who is more suspicious and somebody decides to put the airplanes on alert, just in case. History would be different. Not this message. I was talking about Washington's warning of Hawaii. That went through the slow civilian channels instead of the military... That's WHY FDR needed a full attack. What if the Japs had been spotted a few hours earlier and decide not to attack? Just to cruise close to the Hawaiian islands is not good reason to declare war.
Look, I typed "warning about pearl harbor attack" into google and what I got: (just showing how to use the interwebs) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_advance-knowledge_debate Beside other things: "Statements by high-ranking officials One perspective is given by Vice Admiral Frank E. Beatty, who at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack was an aide to the Secretary of the Navy Frank Knox and was very close to President Franklin D. Roosevelt's inner circle, with perspicuous remarks as, "Prior to December 7, it was evident even to me... that we were pushing Japan into a corner. I believed that it was the desire of President Roosevelt, and Prime Minister Churchill that we get into the war, as they felt the Allies could not win without us and all our efforts to cause the Germans to declare war on us failed; the conditions we imposed upon Japan — to get out of China, for example — were so severe that we knew that nation could not accept them. We were forcing her so severely that we could have known that she would react toward the United States. All her preparations in a military way — and we knew their over-all import — pointed that way."[42] Another "eye witness viewpoint" akin to Beatty's is provided by Roosevelt's administrative assistant at the time of Pearl Harbor, Jonathan Daniels; it is the telling comment about FDR's reaction to the attack - "The blow was heavier than he had hoped it would necessarily be. ... But the risks paid off; even the loss was worth the price. ..."[43]" Mind you the last sentence supports my view that they were expecting an even battle, but the Japs got lucky and it was heavier loss than expected by the US leadership.
