Paying to help my Dad out with religion

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Then she is not a devout Jehovah's Witness and is probably on the road to being disfellowshipped. JW's believe the Catholic church is the "Great Whore of Babylon". And they do not celebrate any religious holidays except one, the memorial of the last supper. To do otherwise is to join in the "perversion" of the "true religion".

 

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So instead of admitting that was a wrong example you cant even admit that? This shows how stubborn you are and unwillig to admit any mistakes.

What gmilam said was the truth and I can give you citations if need be. Don't say "wouldn't know" like its a "maybe" when its the truth.

 

I came on here to prove my beliefs. I couldn't prove them, so I was either faced with cognitive dissonance or realization of truth (based on what we currently know).

 

No, I was just saying that it was a bad example of a Jehovah's Witness when it is obvious she isn't devout. Are you sure she is even baptized? She can't be removed if he wasn't baptized, lol. She just isn't devout. I don't think celebrating holidays is reason for removal, but she may be restricted in what she is able to do within the religion, if they even do know about it. It is a no-no if you with to "please God", though.

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Your posts regularly indicate challenges with reading comprehension. Is this something you've had diagnosed, perhaps? I ask because the answer to your question is quite clear if you've read the thread at all, and this is not the first time on this site you've made such a comment where the answer was right before you. I'm not even going to answer comments that have such disregard to my replies.

I'm not even going to answer comments that have such disregard to my replies. Also, you have a weird definition of atheism, indeed.

I'm not even going to answer comments that have such disregard to my replies.

Read below.

Read below.

Read below.

I'm not even going to answer comments that have such disregard to my replies. (Try Ctrl + F + "*** Watchtower 1994 2/15, p 24 ***")

I'm not even going to answer comments that have such disregard to my replies.

I know I've said this before, also, but their beliefs are based on fairy tales, whereas our beliefs are based on facts (of what we currently know).

Where have I said it wasn't connected to his religion? A citation, please. It is caused by his marital woes and it is caused by his religion. Both things at the same time.

When you are in a car crash, the cause could be because of both driver's errors. For instance, if you are texting while driving while driving or whatever and went into the other lane, nothing might have happened and the car who you would have hit veered out of the way. Now what happens if both were distracted? Car crash happens. It is technically both driver's fault.

If my Dad had married someone without a mental disorder and who had loved him, he may not be depressed and he may be happy in this religion, but that is not the case, and the religion is making it much much much worse.

Read below.

1. Read below.

2. Yes. At this point he will. I have to do it when he has doubt so that he may not shun me.

3. Are you serious? I've never said such a thing, I said he doesn't have the tools to even begin to understand. He certainly is bright enough to understand the claim that there is no evidence that the Bible is God's word. The question is will he be logical and accept it or will he have a case of cognitive dissonance?

4. I don't believe him to be so, but there is absolutely no way to know unless it is tried.

Ah, finally we get to the main point I've been asking you to read below for.

I do believe you need to learn the meaning of the word "latter" and "former". If you had read the thread you would know someone else had that same problem but corrected himself. Yes, it really is that simple.

Yes. Based on the meanings of those words above...

Have I?

Again, not knowing about the situation. I've already said I want them to call my Google Voice #. I will have complete control over the discussion. One wrong word and *Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep.*

I'm not even going to answer comments that have such disregard to my replies.

And yet again extremely exaggerating what I've said.

You do not represent the members of this site, even if you are a moderator.

I believe anyone on this site will agree that you are exaggerating, distorting, disregarding, taking my comments out of context, and even replying to things I never even said. It seems that members have had disagreements with you in the past, also, but I am only basing that on one person's opinion. :shrug:

I'm not sure what your position is on this forum, but if I were to be banned, I would like to be approved to be banned by at least another moderator that has viewed all posts on this thread, also, if I may be given the courtesy. I do not believe I am in the wrong here, as I have tried to show in my replies to you.

No one has insulted me as you have over all the other forums I have posted to about this matter, and certainly no moderator has threatened me with removal over such a trivial matter when I have shown it is 100% under control and in no way "dangerous" to my father.

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If you wish I can post an edited thread with all monetary subjects removed, as it may have been foolish to do that, I agree with you, and we can close this thread. :shrug:

Sincerely, I thank you.

 

I believe social events are fine, as are weddings and funerals. It's the religious holidays and birthdays that are the kicker.

But the thing about JW's is they WITNESS. It's in the name... Maybe she just doesn't like you and doesn't want to see you in paradise.

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Agreed. The social events are fine as long as they are not in another church or something.

 

Always do ctrl+a and ctrl+c from time to time so that you can just paste from the last copy. I had this problem myself a few times.

In todays age and more so tomorrow, it is truely impossible to any person to really be alone. The internet ensures that even if you like to eat a honey-marmalade-jam-peanutbutter-cucumber sandwitch, you can find people like you.


Bells, asking my Dad to think for myself is 100% equal to asking a plumber to think for himself when he is tasked with building a car. Let me relate the analogy:

That is your Dad, ok.

Thats the brainwashing from the JW, got it.

Is you father sad because JW somehow doesnt fit his expectations? OR is he sad because JW is forcing him into doing things he doesnt want to do by exploiting the mental cage their brainwashing cornered him into?

That is quite arbritrary, since that level of certainty is not available to us. However, for a personal, literal god, its close enough [it would not be so if you father were a deist for example].

So the JW ideology is demonstrably wrong or flawed? Can you elaborate?

Again, you cannot be sure of anything. An inventor or a salesman is a better analogy than a real car mechanic.

No, its the former. BUt the choice must be made depending on all relevant factors, not just these ones.

The friend should tell only if doubts or suspicions or other things make me unhappy in my current relationship OR if I personally value truth or knowledge above all else. There is a difference beause will the plumber is suffering due to his lack of knowledge, the guy in the example above isnt.

 

I had done this, but I needed to check my email for something urgent in the middle of typing it out, and copied and pasted a number, lol. I only had to write a few more sentences and I would be home-free I thought after clicking submit. Boy did that teach me a lesson. You are never home-free, Haha.

I have Internet friends, but they are all around my age or young. I may find some older friend in the future, but not currently.

The point I wanted to bring out was that there is something wrong here, but the plumber doesn't think it's a problem with his "car" because he believes it really is a car when it is not. My Dad doesn't see a problem because he believes everything the religion teaches is truth when it is not.

That part wasn't meant to be apart of the analogy, I was really just telling a story at that point. XD

We can be sure that the JW religion is not the truth, though.

They claim to base their religion on the Bible when they take scriptures out of context for their own teachings, and even mistranslated things in their translation of the Bible whenever it contradicts their teachings. So by believing this religion you are in actuality saying the Bible is wrong, without even realizing it, lol.

Not to mention al the failed predictions and changed teachings.

If you were inspired of God, there would be no reason to change your teachings or be inspired to predict things that don't come true. They explain this by, "The light getting brighter." Which is just another scripture they take out of context, lol. Its ludicrious. If anything, a religion will add things, but not change things and predict things that fail, lol. I'm just afraid to tell my Dad this face to face....

I didn't mean for you to get technical, Haha. For the point of the story, that is a real car mechanic with credentials to back it up.

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The whole point of the analogy was to relate the two. By saying that, doesn't it invalidate the analogy?

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But I do get what you mean, and for that your are just going to have to trust me. :/

My Dad has told that he would rather the latter above all else. (he values knowledge and truth, even if that would mean him living in misery.) By that, he has given me the indirect, but withstanding go ahead to ask for help on here, I believe.

Thank you, mate.

 

Okay dude... my redundancies have clearly not helped you see the real situation here (not the one you somehow got in your head and apparently those that think I should be banned head's either), but at least I got a shorter reply.

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Hopefully I can explain it, I don't know, more clearer or something, I don't know, but I will explain it again and we will see what happens.

Let's see if we can make this easier on both of us if you can please respond to each line? Even if there is nothing to respond to, you can agree or say understood or something. Hopefully this will make sure you aren't missing anything, or if you find a problem with my reasoning, you can directly reply to each point. I beg of you.

I do NOT, I repeat, I do NOT want to FORCE or MAKE, as you say, or any of it's derivatives, my beliefs on my Dad. That would be tantamount to the religious crusaders or USSR campaigns, and would be childish, and literally impossible.

My Dad told me he values the truth above all else. (This is on one line, because there seemed to be a misunderstanding about this before.)

I want to give him that option without having the possibility of being shunned by him and my other family members.

My Dad has no knowledge on how to use any research tools, and neither does he want to use them. He likes learning through his ears only. But he does LOVE learning.

The only option I see is by word of mouth, without incriminating myself in the process. (I don't want him to think that I question the religion.)

If my Dad is unreasonable, I WILL NOT bring up the subject again, myself.

I find my dad should be open minded because of his curiosity, and his wanting to know the truth, even when it jepardizes his own happiness. (His words.)

I have no way of knowing if my Dad is suicidal. This is not fact, I don't have ESP, he hasn't been diagnosed professionally. He told me he has had suicidal thoughts in the past. How serious was this? Couldn't he have been lying to me for reasons unknown? I don't know, and you don't know. It shouldn't be discussed as fact.

Let me discuss the facts about my Dad anonymously and you yourself draw your own conclusions as to my Dad's attributes. I believe this to be no worse than asking for advice on advice forums. Lately my Dad watches TV all day 3 or 4 days a week besides making some important phone calls with regards to his houses. On the other days he is doing neccesary things in regards to his work. Even in his work he is procrastinating to the max, even with my constant reminders from myself. Paying bills on the last possible day without incurring a late fee, even taxes. We just got caught up on the book work after it hadn't been touched in 6 months. My Dad and I have both been staying up past midnight doing various entertainment activities. For me, it's not really important, as I have no responsibilities that rely on me getting up early, and have been told it's normal at this stage in life. For my Dad, he gets upset because he isn't getting to study his religious literature. Even though he is his own man, as you say, I myself have been trying to go to bed earlier just so he might follow my example. 9 out of 10 times it doesn't work. My Dad expresses desire to me to want to go back to church, but never follows through on it. I am not sure why.

My Dad has told me a lot lately that he is depressed. He leaves out why, but he always expresses his discontent with the situation he is in. ("I haven't been loved all my life, and never will because there is no sister in the congregation I like and I don't want to actively pursue anyone because my spirituality is so weak now." "I cant get any position in the congregation or pioneer, or comment at the meetings because the elders say I have to either get a divorce or have sexual relations with a wife that doesn't love or respect me." His own words.) These things are directly related to the religion.

Would he be better off without the religion? I have reason to believe so, based on what I know, and based on what he has told me. He is happier with the truth, his problems as stated in his own words above would be no more, and he will have me to support him the rest of his life if need be, especially when he has absolutely no friends otherwise.

I acted childishly when I involved monetary funds. It was a mistake based on unsound reasoning. My reasons for this is because I was desperate and wanted to appeal to people. I've tried elsewhere and received no help with my problem when I didn't involve monetary subject matter. I also thought it would be a good idea to help others who were struggling with their faith as I have gone through. Obviously gaining money behind someone's back is morally repugnant; it was a mistake. I still believe it wouldn't be with his permission and making it non-profit, but that is the furthest thing from my mind right now. Please accept my apology. And my offer still stands to lock this thread and ask for help on another thread. (My Dad cannot be apologized to for obvious reasons.)

I do not want anyone to lie to my Father. I only want them to be my Father's bible study student for a few minutes. Asking him questions many people will even ask you at the door. (My father unfortunately has not been asked these questions by an informed person, and I've asked him that.)


I am not giving out any of my Father's personal information. I am giving out my own phone number, which I will forward to my Dad. I will be listening in to prevent anything from possibly happening, as I have the control to end the conversation if I do not like it.

If my Dad wishes, he may want the truth on the matter and ask me to look up whatever he was told. I will ask him questions myself, but ultimately it has to be my father's choice to want to look it up.

My Father is no lunatic, as you seem to be describing him in your point #2, I have described my father only as having been suicidal in the past, I see no inclination of him being so now, I have no idea (and I have stated this), but based on my observations as related above, he is depressed because of problems directly related to the religion, and he yearns for the truth. Also, I only ever intended the phone calls to be a spark that my Dad himself will chose whether or not to light, I don't see how some questions that anyone can ask him when he knocks on people's doors will cause him to go crazy and harm himself and/or others. That is just nuts. (Also, I've never heard of site owners being held responsible for what their members do, but that is besides the point, because it is rediculous to suggest the events leading up to that will even happen in the first place.)

My Dad does not want professional help. After my mom and I suggesting he get help several times, he got defensive, felt insulted and claimed it was only a mild temporary depression and God would help him through it. To be clear, my Mom is being treated for BPD, and has a therapist, etc. The religion by no means villifies professional help not involving hypnosis, etc. It encourages it if need be, but also says to rely on God above all else, as he will help you, and if he doesn't do it in this system of things, and you die, you will be ressurected into paradise for staying faithful. Although at one time, I do believe, the religion teached against antibiotics and one leader even died after not wanting to take them. Don't quote me on that, though.

I believe I've explained the situation to the best of my abilities now, although I do believe most of these points have been said by me before.

Again, please reply to each line if you can spare me the courtesy.

Thanks a bunch.

And a smiley to clarify my tone.

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@Gab - on Bells. Play nice. Bells is a She and she is much more matured and experienced than we are. Plus, she is a mod - not the one to be locking horns with, at least not emotionally [if you find a logical flaw, knock it down, but please learn to confine logic to thinking and emotion to experience]. And stop being so self assertive, its natural for our age but it isnt helpful in tight and delicate situations.

 

Agreed.

@Gar

Indeed this is a serious matter Gar. I suggest you post a retraction of the money offer and personal details and ask the mods to edit out that part. Turn this into just an advice thread and deal with the problem yourself. We want to help you, but we cannot risk ourselves or this site in the process. You have to do this yourself - either tactfully and controllable follow the advice you see best for you OR learn to live with your father's beliefs and problems, seeking other avenues for helping him like seeing a friendly or personal counselor at a home visit, doing outdoor stuff together, etc. As for this thread, let it evolved, see who gives what advice, what kinds of ideas and suggestions emerge and play it slow and smart.

 

I was going to reply to #94 but you can comprehnsively summed up my thoughts too. I am with Bells on this one Gar, as we know more about your dad, the worse the idea of deconversion seems for now. The first and foremost task you or some trusted friend of yours is to do is to understand and analyse your father mentally so that you can understand his depression , try and solve it and take steps to prevent a relapse before, during or after the then acceptable deconversion. And take a pause and be the sceptic towards yourself - analyse every single conclusion or assumption you make about the situation, the troubles and the causes. Try and knock down your own answers to see it they are worth holding. This is a minefield you are running around in, its best to recheck everything.

 

About 30 years ago I had a friend convert to Jehovah's Witness. For a while we could discuss ideas and bible interpretations. However, the deeper he got into it the more often I heard, "Let me check with the elders and I'll get back with you on that." Then he would return with the party line on whatever topic we had been discussing.

His wife left him soon after his conversion. A few years later he married a lady he met at church. That didn't work out for whatever reasons and he went through depression. The root of it was that by JW doctrine, adultery is the only legitimate reason for divorce. There was no adultery in this case, so in the eyes of the church they were still married. He managed to get through it. I lost touch with him about 20 years ago, so I don't know how he's doing these days.

 

Fuck it, you have drawn me in, I have to reply directly.

The great ethical dilemma about inducing a deconversion is that the deconvertor has to make the decision for the deconvertee, so its usually best that they both be the same person. As you would yourself know and almost every non-believer on this site would agree, once the spell is broken, it can never be the same again. The problem is that the outcome can be worse than the current situation, and that [and not the truth] should be your greatest concern. As an atheist, rationalist and sceptic, you MUST be a Pragmatist. You cannot let your [or anyone's] thinking take precedence over practical things. And you are indeed pushing this because it is you, not your father, who would be making a decision - hence the onus of breaking the spell and taking responsibility for the outcome falls on you - its the same dilemma a doctor faces from time to time, often is life or death choices, and I dont think you are up to anything near that. Not Yet, Gar. Take the advice of someone close to you, a wiser or older friend maybe. Have him/her help you out. There must be someone - a friend's professor, someone's aunt or uncle - this is essential that you dont take the decision on your own, not until you can convice the neutral third party [this site] that your decision, or your very capability or right to make that decision, is justified. I know I am being harsh after being supportive for a time but I was unaware of the seriousness of this situation.

Ok, but have someone wise and friendly personally do it.

Good choice. NOw your are starting to be pragmatic.

If the effects are serious enough, that should not be your decision to make.

The worse must always to considered contingent if not outright likely. That is something that, IMO, should become second nature to you if you are to be the realist you want/claim to be.

He seems to be sad, melancholy, uninterested and inconfident. These issues will not go away just with a deconversion. It runs much deeper, I think. Advice on this particular issue is beyond me, I must admit.

He needs a shrink, not a deconversion.

You alone should not make this judgement. Involve others and listen to them. Let that be the purpose of this thread from now.

Ah, an apology and honest admitance. A man after my own heart indeed - http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2904599&postcount=87
You have my appreciation, respect and appraisal.

If it can be demonstrably shown to be justified to a good enough end, even outright manipulation of your father is acceptable to me. But so far, that is not the case, hence the need for delicate handling.

Your actions and words dont seems to echo the freedom you want to give your father. I repeat - now is not the time for deconversion, now is the time for psychological help, be it from anyone.

Then bring in a private/friendly shrink as a bible study student. If you consider this, put it up for advice from other sciforumers.