Paying to help my Dad out with religion

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I don't disown my sons , My sons are not very religious , One goes to one church ( Catholic ) once a wile, and the other goes to the same church as I go ( Protestant ), I love them .
It all depends what you mean sense. I have two brains left an right , one is rational and the other emotional , It all depend on the problem to solve . O need input from both . I believe the same way as you and there are other things that I will not pretend that I know.

 

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Upon rereading much of this thread, I sense fear, and that fear has two main avenues.

-Fear for yourself, if it should become known that you no longer 'believe' and are shunned.
-Fear for your father who you are of the opinion may be suicidal.

Your greatest challenge of the moment would seem to be how to deal with your own new understanding and belief system rather than being concerned with the life and beliefs of another, even your father.

From the manner in which I was taught, I learned that you are only accountable for your own actions.

Until you come to grips with how you intend to use your new understanding and whether you can forge a new life if shunned, you shall remain twisting in the wind.

You would deflect your challenge onto reasonable concern about your father and how to save him from the potential of suicide, and I respect your concern having dealt with similar family matters in the past.

Ultimately, your father's life is his own to live or take and the only one you have any right to or potential control of, is your own.

Yes, I am familiar with being 'damned unto eternal hell' by more than one religious sect.

So be it. I have yet to grow a tail and horns.

 

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@Bells: on occassion I have criticised you for one thing or another, one belief or another, one attitude or another. Your post, two or three above, is however spot on. for what it is worth, well done.

 

As Ophiolite said, good job, but I have to disagree with you. I feel similiarly about my Dad as far as belief and knowledge as well as capacity to make critical and informed choices go. However, as I said here, I am able to solve my problem much more ecclectically since there is no pressure to confront or resolve it. Gar is pushed by the situation and cicumstances of his father;s depression, a possible distancing and an oppressive cult to do this and it is indeed difficult. I agree with you that thrusting his ideology on his father is wrong but I would disagree with your advice to just let him be. His ideology is having a negative impact on him, his marriage and relationship with his son and Gar seems to be the better or more broadly informed person here and hence should have to right to make the choice of whether or not introduce doubts in his father;s mind. He has this right but deems himself incapable or at risk in using it, hence he made the OP. At this point we can either agree with him or disagree, giving our reasons for either. Once we make our side clear, we must further express how he should introduce said doubts [but not push his father to conform to his ideas] or tell him why he should let his father's beliefs alone.

 

Mother = is soft love ,, Father = though love,
From mother you get kindness and tolerance , from father you get strength and character .
Normally: father, you live in my domain you follow my rules . So he have a position and he is happy . You come to him with different ideas , that is a challenge to his position . Why should he listen to new ideas since he is happy , can you be more happy then you are happy? IF goes to church and have a social life and relationship, the new idea is disruptive .
Now about the truth> Atheist truth deals with physical objects , beyond it does not have any knowledge . O cannot deal with spiritual domain . It is like Big Bang that is far it goes . Beyond that there is no discussion .

 

Well, good for you... However Matthew 10:34-39 says:

The Jehovah's Witnesses would say that this situation is exactly what Jesus was talking about. By their teachings, Garbonzo's father has to make a choice - his son or his salvation. At least the JW's don't believe in hell, so they don't have the threat of eternal damnation to hold over him.

 

Generally, I agree with what Bells says here.

Both of you are quite young. You are neither physiologically nor psychologically mature.

You would be wrong to consider yourself capable and entitled to judge other people.

 

Thank you for that insight. Although the JW's used to beat a path to my door when I was boarding the horses of one of their members, we never got into a discussion of hell.

I did task them with providing an answer to their position on gays and lesbians and when they returned with the standard response of such being 'an abomination in the eye's of the Lord' or quotes to that effect, that pretty much ended our parlor game of polite dialogue and pop quiz.

The Mormons tried next but I passed myself off as a pagan druid and that seemed to send them packing.

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I respect many of the values that the various religions teach, but not the religions themselves, having been through my own early experiences with 'organized religion', the practitioners of which I found many did not live the ideals they espoused. :shrug:

 

Yes indeed. Teens usually feel on top of the world but on this site, with the biggies like Fraggle and Aqueous and others likes James, schez, you or Jan, I can really feel much more humble and realistic in my self-image. While immature and inexperienced, my capability or right to judge someone else is relative - as a virgin, I would be incorrect and irrational to consider my views on sex better than my parents'; unless they are more logical and practical. In that I would differ to their experience and knowledge and also use their advice. However, as an atheist, I have read and researched more and wider than my parents have, in that I am surely the greater authority, since I have more, nuanced and broader knowledge. I cannot socially or practically justify making their decisions for them, though they rightly are entitled to doing the same for me and I have no problem with that. But I do think its proper for me to both share my views and moreover challenge and introduce doubt into theirs because my views are demonstrably more logical, rational and intricate. I, however, dont do this because I have no incentive to do so and also might have a disavantage if I pursue it nevertheless. In closing, age or experience, IMO, is not whats important, the scale, amount, quality, intricacy and demonstrability of knowledge is important. That usually is proportional to age but when its not, the younger one should not shy from pointing out the flaws in the older and more experienced but nevertheless less informed or demonstrably wrong one.

 

House made me an misanthrophe and that is what I call the mass effect. The larger the participants and the laxer the requirements for participation, the worse the outcome tends to be*. I find this to fit in well as a unifying method for factoring in social, economic, educational and informational levels of the common man and the masses - and why countries that make guys like Sagan also have guys like Hovind.

*this view of misanthrophy+narcisism+eliticism can really go bad, to the equal of stalin or hitler and here's where my eclecticism and typical teen-age optimism comes in very handy, as I presented in my thread "the need for debasement of religion", I propose changing the "vision" of the masses so that they can become or strive to be the best, that everyone becomes part of the elite of something, preferably in their chosen fields.

 

Interesting indeed, arauca. That seems to be quite the tradition atribution of qualities, examplar indeed. I tend to think of adults, including my parents as essentially the same as me, complex and sometimes flawed, maybe more experienced but nevertheless not much greater or better in qualities or character.

Agreed. Indeed one of the reasons why I have the white lie.

I think philosophy, psychology and neurology will someday fill in that hole. Till then we can resort to mysticism or like me, placebo-religiousity - the use of things like the God concept or prayers purely as situational tools, to eliviate a tension or help with coping or use as a placebo for better performance, etc. This is both personally useful and socially convinent. The problem is that it takes a fair bit of cold-hearted ruthlessness and total freedom from the bindings of theism for this to actually work. That is to say, only a few can appreciate a magic trick after knowing how it works, and sometimes we are better off with the trick than without it. Hence breaking the spell might leave a person without the wonder of the trick unless they have a cold and eclectic thinking like I do. This for me is the greatest ethical dilema in the choice to intitiate the doubts that might seed a deconversion.

Or on the other hand, perhaps we will have a new way of looking at and experiencing spirituality, rather than being like relativity replacing newtonian gravity, it might be like chemistry replacing alchemy, in which case we can only speculate at the present.

 

You do strike me as having some very well informed views for your age, aaq.

I can sympathize with the circumstances which garbonzo finds himself in but I can also see many challenges for the approach which by which he started this thread.

Regrettably, I have no insightful experiences to share on the subject of JW's beyond the experiences I have already made mention of.

 

:thankyou:
Well, I have and will have for atleast 14 more months, wastefully massive amounts of time - my studies take only 12 hours a week and the projects and assignments take about 15-20 more weakly hours. That leaves me with the equal of over 5 days a week to do as I might - I watch documentaries and lectures, read books and articles, discuss here and on youtube, work out and play video games and sleep late and still have time left over. Trust me though, if my mom, a master time manager was setting my schedule, I would probably be 2-3 times more efficient - running late and having a shitty sleep routine seems to be a result of my age more than anything.

Just like me, he is inexperienced and naive in this matter, unsure how to handle it - while I can understand Bells and others, I dont think the harsh and cold manner usually seen on science or religious debates should be applied here.

Neither do I. Maybe you might have something about managing delicate discussion, caring for close relationships, understanding and resolving tough situations - there might be something we can all do, I really emathise with Gar here and its unusual really, I am usually cold, unemotional and introverted* [goes with being a sceptic, rationalist and misanthrophe I guess] but this guy, about my age and in a comparable situation, one who will probably never meet me face to face, one who I will hardly ever really know, has triggered an emotional response in me nevertheless - that I why I was moved enough to come back from my recent hiatus here. Really wish we could help him!:scratchin:

* Though I can and do feel or act with empathy and feeling towards strangers and friends/relatives, that is not the usual response.

 

Agreed.

I dont think so either. I only think that his beliefs are not demonstrably justified to be considered true.

Idk about any tendancy to atheism, I was an complete and devout theist for 17 whole years [18th year running] before I finally went through a difficult and defragging de-conversion. The only tendency I can remember was a deep attraction towards knowledge and understanding.

Maybe a thread on this issue?

Agreed. Which I why I state my position in three seperate categories -

Existence of God - Agnostic
Belief in God - Atheist
On religion - Apatheist

 

@wynn --

Oh that "don't judge" bullshit again, when will you theists(yes, I know that you're not technically a theist, you just engage in so many of the same fallacious thought processes that you might as well be) get tired of being wrong on that. Whether we should or shouldn't judge is, quite literally, a moot point because we, as humans, have no choice but to judge. We can't get around it, the only thing we can do is alter the basis on how we judge.

 

OMFG! :runaway: I made a huge like 5000 word reply to this thread and stupid vBulliten said "Token Expired" and I lost it ALL! The back button didn't work. I really can't believe it. lol

Geez...

I know this reply won't be as eloquent as the other, but I don't fucking care. :bawl:

aaqucnaona, I agree with everything you said. You seem to understand the most the situation I am in. Thanks a lot. I'm not sure if it's because of our age, or because you have a similar situation yourself and can empathize. I hope it would be the latter. I only wish I had your vocabulary, though, haha. I never really paid attention to any education I didn't need to pass tests because the religion teaches not to pursue higher education since "the end is right around the corner" lol. You could say it is an excuse, but that was the main reason. Instead, I spent all my free time playing video games. This can still work out in the long run, though, as I do plan on pursuing game design as a career and I hope to make some real innovations in the industry.

The only question in regards to this context is whether or not I will have my Dad to rely on when I need someone older and wiser in times I need that.

When you think about it, the amount of people who don't have that is very small. Almost everyone has someone older and wiser they can talk to who has more experience in life, etc. even if you're an orphan. I don't know anyone, though, not connected to the religion, since I was homeschooled since 6th grade and moved away since then.

The same as you, the only tendency I had was a search for truth and knowledge. I had the great research tool known as the computer and I could research both sides of the argument and make a logical conclusion based on what I know. My dad doesn't have those research tools, though.

Bells, asking my Dad to think for myself is 100% equal to asking a plumber to think for himself when he is tasked with building a car. Let me relate the analogy:

A plumber needs to build a car, but he doesn't know what a car looks like, how one operates, he knows nothing about a car, for reasons we don't need to elaborate on (no he is not blind, haha). He knows it's a machine to get around in faster than walking. The only problem is that he does not have access to any schooling, any tools to teach him, such as books, the internet, etc. So he can't build a car.

Now a mechanic comes along and claims to know how to build a car. (Mechanics in this story can build stuff, kay?

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) To the plumber this seems like a miracle, right? The mechanic can teach him how to build this car. So the mechanic tells the plumber what tools to get, and guides him on how to build this car. So after all is said and done, the plumber is hysterical. He has built his car thanks to this mechanic! He is happy with his work.

That's only what the plumber thinks, though. I will get to the real truth in a minute. Right now the plumber is content. But after the plumber takes the car out on the road he is disturbed! He knew that cars were supposed to make it easier to get around, but this isn't as fast as he expected it to go based on what people told him. He is stressed. He wonders if he did something wrong, but he knows it's right, because the mechanic guided him!

Here is the real truth:

The mechanic was a mechanic, but not a car mechanic... he was a bicycle mechanic! The car was not a car... it was a bicycle! The bicycle mechanic didn't necessarily want to mislead the plumber, but he thought (by whoever taught him) that he was a car mechanic and he could build a car. He didn't know it was really a bicycle, either. So that's why the "car" the plumber has is so slow, and he is not satisfied with it.

So now you come along and you are real car mechanic and you know how to build a car. You see this plumber on his bike, and you get to talking with him. You find out that he thinks his bike is a car, and that he is kind of disappointed in it. Throw in somewhere that if he doesn't get this real car he will lose his son for whatever reason.

You know his "car" is actually a bike. You know how to build a car and you can teach this plumber how to build a car. You help this plumber.

OR you can reason that he is his own man, he can figure it out himself (when you know he can't), he has free will, he can do whatever he wants. He doesn't need any help from you.

Are you trying to tell me that the more loving and respectful thing to do is the latter?????

I don't think so. This plumber can use my help and expertise, because he doesn't know any better. IF for whatever reason this plumber has cognitive dissonance, then you can't help him, but you should at least try. Right? What would you do? If you see any flaws in this analogy, you can point them out, but I'm sure it can be fixed by wording it differently.

Another example would be if you have a friend that sees your mate being intimate with someone else. Providing you don't have an open relationship, wouldn't you rather your friend told you? You may have had a great relationship with that mate before. The friend could reason that you are happy, so why should they tell you and ruin your happiness? Or, that you are smart, you can find out for yourself. But wouldn't you rather have the truth?? Maybe you would never know if your friend didn't tell you. I know some people would rather not know for some reason, but I know my Dad would like the truth, because we've discussed this before.

Is there any difference here???? I don't see one, and I don't know how anyone else would.

 

Let me reply to a few points here not covered by my illustrations:

No, the things he is stressed and depressed about is directly related to the religion. He is not blaming it on the religion, it is because of the religion. But he still thinks this is the truth, so what else are you going to do? It reminds me of those suicide bombers who believe they have to die to get 23 virgins or whatever in heaven. It's not the same, but it still stands that none of that was needed. They are believing a fairy tale. It's not the truth.

Why do you think he doesn't deserve a chance?

Tell me any method on how to research both sides of this argument, and I'll tell you if that is an option for him.

I worded that wrong. I meant that You seem to be under the impression that he has all the facts. But, I guess it still makes sense. He doesn't have all the facts and he has no way to find them. Do you understand that?

Under the current strict regulation, they would not be allowed to be friends with you, if they wanted to "please God". It is the truth from their own publications:

But nevertheless, that wasn't your point. They may look to be happy on the outside, but what about how they really feel? We don't know. Most JWs (not "Jehovah's", lol) are happy, but they may be even more happy if they didn't have to live in fear they won't make it into this fairy tale afterlife. Maybe? We don't know. We can't judge. You shouldn't have even brought that up, as it is irrelevant to my Dad's case. The reason I know he would be better off without this religion is because his depression and stress is directly linked to the religion.

I don't want to demand him to do anything, only suggest the right path and let him take it for himself.

.

Again, not forcing, harassing, or abusing anyone to do anything. Why is that so hard for you to understand? If they don't want to listen, then they don't have to listen. I only want to offer them a chance just like you or anyone else.

Also, I don't believe you are trying to understand it from my boots. You may be trying to see it according to your own situation.

You don't have to worry about losing your parents when you need them most as such at such an early age, all for a fairy tale. Please at least try to understand that. I would have to deal with it if he showed himself to be unreasonable and closed minded, yes, but he hasn't show himself to be like that.

Will it? How do you know that for sure? Also, AGAIN, I won't be pressuring anyone. Only guide him down the right path. A path that will make him much happier, I believe. And if not, he would rather that, because he told me himself. He would rather the truth. Again, if he doesn't want the truth I will not pressure him to do anything. I'll drop it. I believe everyone should be given a chance.

I was trying to be respectful here, but seriously? Seriously? You are making that so hard by ignoring everything I say!

I can't support him if he shuns me.

I just don't understand why you can't get that in your head, I really can't. I cannot keep repeating myself like this.

That is the whole reason I am on this thread to begin with, because he will shun me if I question, or stop seeing things his way. It's not because he is evil, it's because he was brainwashed to believe that is what God wants. I am on here for help so that won't have to happen. If it does, then so be it, but it's just plain ludicrous to not try.

I am getting very emotional right now. I'm trying to present my situation here, and it's like it is just flying over your head.

I'm sorry you can't see that. :shrug:

*Takes a chill pill.*

No one can be ready to start a race they don't know is taking place.

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He is unwell not because of his marital crisis. That has been done well over 3 years now, he is unwell because the religion is making his life miserable because of his marital status. It is because of the religion. P

lease don't say it is anything else, because it is not, and you're just going to have to take my word for it.

Yeah, he is going to tell the counselor, "Yeah, my religion is making me stressed because they are asking me to do blah blah blah, but I can't because blah blah blah, I told them this, and they don't want to do anything about it, they are being stubborn, etc."

He won't do that! And if he did, you know the first the the counselor is going to say is, "Maybe you should get out of that religion." Or something of the sort. It's the logical thing to think. Of course my Dad won't see it that way because of the brainwashing.

The JWs are a unified religion, so if he goes to another church, the elders there will talk to the other Elders and say to him the same thing. There is no side stepping.

He won't accept professional help! He believes if he prays to God, God will help him! Well he's been praying everyday now and I see no help coming. Whether that's because my Dad doesn't want to help himself or not is irrelevant. If he doesn't believe in this shit, nothing like this would have happened in the first place.

I am saying you are a troll for not understanding the situation after repeating it to the best of my abilities several times. I understand you may have just skimmed the thread because your time is valuable to you, and I understand that, but it is giving me undue headache. And I said the word troll lightly, as you obviously aren't one in the traditional sense, but you are acting like one.

They were basing that on fairy tales where as I am basing my claims on what we currently know in the world. I am not going to slaughter my Dad if he doesn't want to hear it, lol. Heck, I won't even mention it again, as he won't talk to me again, anyway. I don't see how you can correlate the two.

If you consider not being able to use the computer, the library or any research tools the definition of stupid, then I would agree, but I don't believe that. His intelligence is definitely varied.

I offered money because no one wanted to help otherwise. It seems no one wants to help even with the money. Maybe it wasn't the best idea. You can blame that on my youth, but you can understand that I am desperate and this is the only solution I see. If you have a better one, please suggest it, but your suggestions so far don't seem to relate to my situation. I've already said I am not forcing anybody to do anything. Religious debates happen all the time, I don't know why in the world it is so hard to find someone willing to do this for my Dad. He is willing to do this! I am not asking you to do anything he hasn't agreed to. Indirectly, but still agreed to.

You make it seem like I want someone to call my Dad on the phone and yell at him or something. I am not asking them to do anything his Bible Study students don't already do! Ask questions, etc.

You are exaggerating so much, it is inconceivable to me how anyone could actually do this.

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But seriously, you are.

Based on my discussions with the people here, they don't seem to have any physiological issues. I thought a regular might want to help. I guess I was wrong, so far. Although I haven't heard back from Iq. And even if they did, I plan on giving them my Google Voice number which connects to my home phone number. Phone numbers can easily be blocked and I can even change my Google Phone #, as I don't even use it that much.

You see, you don't know my intentions, so you are doing the same thing to me that you are criticizing me about wanting to do to my Dad!

You are judging me without the full story...

You are really being hypocritical here, to be blunt.

And I just want to reiterate that you are exaggerating largely when you say I want a complete stranger to insult things my Dad cares deeply about.

You are shitting in my face by saying that, when I highlighted in my OP how to do it without insulting him at all, by asking him questions any informed person would ask when considering a religion. I have gone to great lengths and thought so much on how to make it so that he is not insulted, and you just come in and say it is invalid, or what? Did you even read that part or were you too eager to judge?

Damn, you can just tell how emotional I am getting after reading every insensitive paragraph you typed.

It is still my belief that there is some misunderstanding and that is why you have commented the way you have, but I find it totally ignorant and arrogant to scorn a person as you have without having all the facts.

I am trying not to stoop down to your level by insulting you, as you have me, but I was very emotional after reading your last paragraph.

I'm sorry if I come across arrogant myself, as I try to be the most humble I can be when speaking to anyone.

Thank you.

 

garbonzo, what was the single most convincing bit of information which caused you to relinquish your belief?

I'm interested to know.

Can you post the most convincing link or at least state it clearly and provide some references?

There is a reason that I pose the question.

You are attempting to battle 'faith' with 'logic' and faith does not always yield to logic.

Still, I am curious to know what tipped the balance for you?