Paying to help my Dad out with religion

Dude, you know how stupid you are making yourself sound? For you to say I think I'm perfect is just childish. No one who has an IQ above 80 thinks thinks their perfect. It's illogical.

Also, you don't know my father or my mother, so how could you know any different? Just plain stupid.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

You have described them, we did not know your parents family life ?
I did nit mean in reality that you are perfect . In my view I think you have a mental problem.
I have the faint understanding IQ is a quotient related to age and beyond 22 years old is not applicable.
Beside all what kind of child will portray his parents publicly in such manner , you should be ashamed .

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

I must have typed that wrong. I meant that he said he would rather the truth and be sad for the rest of his life.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

It's not that simple in this religion, though. :scratchin:

Me and my Dad go riding in the city on our bicycles in the summer time. It's too cold up here to go outside in the winter.

Jehovah's Witnesses aren't allowed to have any kind of relationship with "wordly" people, as it may "contaminate" their "thinking". So no hiking group. No group at all outside the church. You can talk to other people of course, but not be friends or even acquaintanceship, lol. That just shows how this religion is, and why he should get out for his own good!

I wouldn't value truth if I KNEW 100% that I was going to be unhappy the rest of my life. Of course there is no way to know that, so for all real purposes, yes I value truth.

I don't believe in purpose. I think we'd have the break the word purpose down to really get the point. The easiest thing to believe in is entertainment. Whatever makes you happy. Whatever is the most fun for you. That is the purpose of life. Nothing else; because everything else falls into happiness. If it's not making you happy, why are you doing it, unless it is needed for more happiness in the future? Eg. If you think having a family will make you happy, you can do that. You made need to date, which can be stressful for some, but it is needed for that goal of happiness. You may have some arguments, but that is natural for happiness, etc.

Values? I think values as a word is kind of stupid. I may be wrong, but I think it's pretty much agreed what one should do and what one shouldn't do as beneficial to the human race and ones' self to any logical person. I've wrote about the different morals brought about by religion here: http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=2913780#post2913780

The Golden Rule should be followed and pretty much nothing else. Governmental rules may not always be right, but of course we have to follow them, also.

I do believe atheism will eventually become the normal for the world. Maybe I might see it in my lifetime. At least for the 1st world countries.

I thank you for your thoughtful words. Are you a therapist, really? lol

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

No you don't know them. I only described a few details related to the subject at hand. You put those words in my mouth, not I. The ONLY things I told you is that my mom cheated on my dad, is bi-polar and therefore yells are people a lot. I don't mind it, as I've grown up with it, and I love both of my parents very much. I know if I were my Dad outside of this religion, I would divorce her and find someone new, because she herself told him that she doesn't love him. My Dad is lazy when it comes to church and that's a good thing. Don't take things out of context. My Dad still owns 7 houses and can't sit around watching TV all day every day. That wasn't my point at all.

I am an atheist like most regulars on this forum. You saying I have a mental problem is saying every atheist has a mental problem. Kinda stupid, since most of the best minds on Earth are atheists.

You took everything out of context, you say we have a mental problem and you expect us to respect you?

If anything, it is you who has the mental problem, and we can all agree on that. (Not accusing you of having one, like you did me, but I'm saying you are more likely to rather than me)

 

@arauca --

Since when does "respecting" our parents mean that we can't air their dirty laundry when it needs airing? Especially since, in this case, the person who's done so has done so anonymously, thereby ensuring that his parents can get the help they may(or may not) need without any undue embarrassment.

I know that if my parents needed help and I wasn't willing to help out because of how that might "portray" them, they'd whip my ass for being so arrogantly idiotic. They raised me better than that.

 

Yeah, exactly. When someone you love needs help, you help them. Unless it would hurt (like killed) more people in the long run, you should help them.

 

Perhaps you should sign him up for Scientology auditing.

 

Well we are different , My family is my family, your kind believes that way , good for you.
Beside he expressed himself as an atheist and an atheist objective is to marginalize a believe . " Look at me I am an atheist and my parents practicing religion , that is their behavior "
Now from you. Could you describe what does respect for your family means ?

 

You typed it correctly, I read it wrong. Get your father a computer and have him hop on to this site to "demonstrate his faith is correct". The site will take care of the rest.

Because of the consequences from the Church? If he lives in America, they can't do anything to him, so if it's fear then maybe hooking him up with a psychologist (i.e. a therapist) can help him gain the confidence he needs to take the actions he needs.

Excellent on the bike riding!! There is this cool invention that can make winter time activity nice and toasty warm. Base layers. They are long sleeved and long legged undergarments (usually in blue or black). They keep you nice and toasty even in the snow. Go to a local REI store and check them out.

Heh, it's all in the positiong. Say the hiking group is just there to help him organize his hiking exercise schedule... not be friends. But, if he should become friends with them then so be it

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

. Nature has a way if defying man-made rules.

Well considering nobody can see into the future, you're good.

You don't have to value purpose. It was just an example of one of many values that you might have.

You still have some learning to do. Values are a core component of what defines people's identities (this is common across all humans). Anytime you use the word *should* or *should not*, especially in the context of agreement, you are running into subjectivity... and as you may or may not be aware of by now, the subjective by it's very nature doesn't objectively exist.

Which golden rule? "Do unto others as you want others to do unto you", "Do unto others as others want to be done to them", something else (and yes there are others)?

If that would happen, we are probably millions of years away from it. We have actually evolved to be a species of believers because of the survival benefits gained from cooperating with others sharing the same crazy beliefs. To get away from that, we would have to have a prolonged period where crazy beliefs actually reduced the chances of a person's survival (and that's very unlikely). I *suspect* what will eventually happen is that humans will recognize all the psychological needs people have and provide healthy outlets for them in society.

 

He avoids the computer because he is afraid he will become addicted to it, like he is the TV. xD

He is brainwashed. Maybe you've never been in a religion? He believes the Society is God's. So they are like Gods to him. He believes everything. There would be no reason for him to go to a therapist because by his reasoning, why?

Thanks. There are no REI stores in WNY, though.

Tbh, I'm not even sure he would want to hike. He is a bit lazy when it comes to exercise that isn't easy (I guess we'd have to find a hiking trail). He likes biking much more.

Yeah, it was just a hypothetical.

What values exactly are you talking about?

Subjectivity... yes, but some peoples values aren't based on anything but church doctrine. That's where I can say *should* and *should not*.

Yep. If you don't want to be murdered, don't murder, if you don't want to get stolen from, don't steal, if you don't want to be insulted, don't insult, etc.

If religion = believing in something that has no right to be believed in under purely factual grounds, then I'm not sure why it would continue as we, as a human race, get smarter and smarter. If we are smart, and can reason and research, then why would we believe in it? Atheism is already rising in 1st world countries. What makes you think it will stop?

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

oke:

Thanks. :thankyou:

 

It's unusual the way you posted your request. You seem to be earnestly looking for resolution to the issues your father has, and the other issue, that the scales have fallen from your own eyes, in a sense.

I'm happy to discuss any of my views on the subject, but I'm not sure if I can actually help you with some of the larger issues you mention. You seem quite adamant about your reasons for leaving the church, and you mention that you arrived at your decision after doing research. You know your father like none of us possibly could, and you're in contact with him. You also seem highly motivated. This concern you have for your father, regardless of the reasons for it, or the outcome of your scheme, is really great.

The only thing that will matter in the long term is that you care for him, regardless of who believes what. My suggestion, based on what you've said so far, is that you should spend as much quality time with your dad as you can afford, help him with any chores that may be too painful for him, and take him out whenever he feels like going somewhere, even if it's just to the store. During these times together he will probably make references to what he believes, or what you believe, and these situations present opportunities for you to just state plainly your reasons for leaving the church. This conversation is good for both of you.

At some point you may feel the need to "prove" to him some idea that you feel strongly has been proved to you. He may not like using a computer, but if you find some ideas online that speak to the ideas you have in mind and you like the way they are written, why not take your $5 and invest in some paper (or a copy shop) and print out for him some of the things you are trying to explain. A few pages at a time wouldn't be too overwhelming for him.

As for some of the main reasons atheists find religion to be false, I will skip past all the vast resources on the web that cover this in great detail, and hit on some of the basics.

When we say there is no God, we usually have a specific idea of what God means. The God of the Bible is just a story, one that just happened to rise to the top and survive all the thousands of other stories different cultures invented that concerned Gods.

We can begin with an understanding of what we know about the story tellers. Do we know their names, or anything about them? At about the same time as these stories were being written down, there were other writers who told their own stories, but they did so in a way that identifies the author. For example, in The Republic, Plato begins by telling us Socrates was going down the road on the way to a festival when he was accosted by a group of men that were going to block his way unless he stopped to engage them in debate. From there Plato sets up debate after debate in which he lays out all of his ideas about truth, justice, morality, freedom and law. This kind of language is situational, it involves people doing ordinary things and merely discussing their reasons for what they believe.

Contrast this with the language of Genesis, which makes no attempt to establish an ordinary situation in which realistic characters are involved in something even remotely possible. Who saw those things happen? Who was there? Plato tells us he was there and names the others present. No persuasion is necessary to accept that Plato was a real person who interacted with other real people during his life, and these things that they discussed are no different than the discussion we are having here. There is no requirement for you to believe in magic, or in strange and mysterious ideas, like a talking snake, or a monster with a flaming sword, or any of a thousand such ideas. This is one of the first requirements for understanding what you are reading: who wrote it, and what was their purpose in writing it.

If you want to enumerate some of the crazy bloopers in the Bible, you can get a list from the web, but I have a favorite from Genesis. It's the way they tried to establish that Eden was a real place on earth, by making a geographical reference. They give you the Tigris and Euphates, which is fine, we know where that is, but then there's two other rivers we've never heard of. Where might they be? If we can find the place where they come together, we will be closer Eden, and there should be a monster with a flaming sword somewhere nearby. Of course, we can find no such rivers. And what would the ancient person hearing this story ask: where are they? Somewhere off in the distance. How far? Well one of them goes to the land of the Kush. Where is that? And they probably had no clue, no one listening to Genesis knew anything about world geography. So this would settle their question: they can't actually go see Eden for themselves because it's off in the vague distance. But they did mention the Kush (or Cush), which is the ancient same for Somalia. The only river that run between Mesopotamia (Iraq) and Somalia is a river that parts the Red Sea. So obviously the story is invented. The writers didn't bother to check for themselves before recording it, because it's just a myth, nothing more.

So now if you wish you can simply ask your father if he thinks Eden was a real place or if it's a fairy tale. Assuming he says, of course it's real, ask him if he ever thought of trying to find it on a map. Then maybe he would be interested to know what you're talking about, and you can get out a map and the Red Sea will bring it all home.

While you've got the map out, you can ask him if Jonah was really swallowed by a fish, and vomited out somewhere near Nineveh. Since that was a real city, you can find it on the map. Now go figure out where Jonah was, i.e., where the fish was, when it swallowed him. I will leave that up to you to trace a probable course that this very pregnant fish swam, but remember that the Suez canal did not exist then, and that only certain fish navigate salt and fresh water. You can eliminate a lot species, and maybe entertain your dad with a little discussion of biology.

What I'm getting at is that you can just bring your father the same questions that anyone would ask in order to determine if the facts in the Bible ring out or not. If you pick one or two topics at a time, and present it as a learning experience and nothing more, it might give your dad some pleasure, to know you are interested in these things, and he might even take an interest himself.

I think this could serve as a template for how to broach the subject with him, and even if he doesn't see things your way, it serves as a form of quality time.

 

Good work Cat and AI! Ok, now to garbonzo - you have a good amount of advice on current issues and everyday life, so I will go long term and in a broad sweep -

First, as a recent atheist like yourself and someone who lives in a religious community, please stop considering atheism as the truth. We can be wrong and our ideas about God are not an assertion of truth, since evidence for such an assertion currently isnt there. What we have or must have is a stance on theist - one of rejection or suspention without absolute conviction, building up ideas, reading both sides and understand others. God is not just a concept for the world as it is for us and you cannot work with other like you can with fellow scientific spectics on this site. Any other ideas or behaviours are inherently irrational since they do eliviate non-belief to fanaticism - strong or militant atheism is not quite the path to take, IMO. Irrationality and fallacies may be attacked as and when you see them, but be ecclectic, not hypocritical. Do you have a reason to think that you stance is the truth and not a stance taken in the meantime while we try and understand the universe better? What we have found so far seems to suggest a godless universe and that is more likely as its more parsimonious, but you are doing no better than your dad if you are convinced beyond self-doubt or trying to make others see the truth.

Now to that. You dont make him see the truth. The change to atheism is not a conversion, its a deconversion. Nice going with the tactics you suggest, may I ask why you dont impliment them yourself? Play smart - dont set up long arguments and dont appear antagonistic. The best way would be to suggest that you had a crisis of faith and are interested in the bible again. Discuss it with your dad and keep in mind all the flaws you encounter - but not use them at that time, it would be too antagonistic. Just wait for the most irrational, stupid, illogical and ignorant part of the discussion and then ask how come something like this is in the word of God. This can easily lead to the altered by people argument which opens the floodgates to doubt and acceptance of errors about the bible. At that point, point out a few of the flaws you found out to enhance his doubt and then end the conversation as if you too are in doubt and unsure. Give him time to thing, for if you continue after his first doubts, he could not have time to defend his ideas and hence would consider you antagonistic, shut you out and the de-conversion ends there. You need to play smart, for you have the stronger case, you just need to make it correctly - in a positive, disarming, uncertain and gratifying way and at his own pace. I remember the first time I had doubts, the process of de-conversion is a traumatic and unsetteling one, it really racks up the mind, uproots a lot of core ideas and raises a lot of questions.

Those are the things you would need to start paying attention to thereafter. Let him feel like he has been doing good in convincing you and then start to knock down only his core rationalisations - if they can stand up to an argument 5 minutes in length, move onto an easy one and then try another core one. End at the point where you knock down one of the core rationalisations and allow him to wallow in his doubt. This is the belief you should attack the next time around. With that rationalisation gone, the belief is exposed to your scepticism, rationality and logic and more importantly, his doubt and wonder. Probe this belief to understand it, dont try to knock it down, for it you do that, a domino collapse of a large part of the religion and theological belief system will go down with it. Save it for a later conversation. Just prod into the belief's core ideas and point out flaws and errors, let him have an overflux of doubt, this will lead to a crisis of faith and only then can you expect a deconversion. Next, prep him to a deconversion. Discuss in a friendly manner, his ideas of justice, morality and destiny and contrast [not counter] them with yours of absurdism[/existentialism], altrusim and causality[and probability]. If he's comfortable with it go into evolution and cosmology, but if feels uncomfortable or defensive/denailist, dont go into those yet. Prime him by discussing intersting thinks like Dna encoding and mutations or the star cycle, etc. The prime for the deconversion is now over.

Next time around, slowly and carefully chip away at the core belief in question above and also weaken its sister beliefs. Pace out all the conversations at his pace, as and when he feels conformable. Keep them between 20-80 minutes. The next conversation will the the first collapse of his core, so keep alert, try and avert any tension or fear he has at that point and dont let get defensive or aggressive, if that happens, leave it for a latter time. This conversation, when the belief system starts to collapse, would be the most sensitive so make sure you handle it well. This is the conversation where you start with the new atheism ideas and explainations. As more conversations are had, his religiousity and theology will slowy collapse and the anchors for those ideas will be stablised by the steady stream of methological naturalist ideas, a little into this process would be a good time to introduce him to this - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA7394EAD98E8DDFD&feature=mh_lolz and only then introduce him to guys like thunderfoot and others. Try and not let him have the defragging collapse like the one I had and you probably had too. Finally, this will be a long and careful process, probably about 50-70 days long with about 20-30 1 hr conversations - so be patient.

A footnote - before you embark on this deconversation, really try and objectively consider if deconverstion is certainly better on more counts that his faith is. If you feel sure of this, then do go ahead. Otherwise, learn to cope and play along around him, try and make his life better some other way.

Best of luck! Oh, and stop being so desperate, take it cool.

 

Just because hes a parent doesnt mean he cannot be wrong and if he is wrong or atleast irrational or stupid, he deserves the flack he gets for it. Love, trust, loyalty and respect all must be earned by parents, they are not bestoved on them by a simple act arising out of a genetic tendency - parenting is much more than just fathering or birthing a child.

 

Hi Aqueous. Thank you very much for your post. I really appreciate it.


But sadly, the situation is much more grave and disturbing than what you seem to believe. Lol. It really is sad. Let me begin.

I cannot question the church. I never left the church per-say. No one I know knows my true thoughts. They all think that I believe. If I question the church, I will be rejected by all I know, and I am not kidding about this at all. I'd say that would make it hard to "care for" my Dad and "spend quality time" with him, id he doesn't talk to me, wouldn't you say? Lol. I am absolutely sure I wouldn't be on this thread typing this if he was in a religion that wasn't so strict. I could reach him much more easily without the fear of losing him, and if he doesn't listen, •I wouldn't mind!• In that case would you said would be true. In the long run it doesn't matter what we believe. I could have a normal relationship with my Dad like anyone else. But this *just isn't possible* in that religion. I am restricted. If I wanted to have a relationship with my Father I would have to live 2 lives and devout massive amounts of my life's time to something absurd, depressing, embarrassing, and overall something I just don't believe in. I would be a massive wreck. As much as I hate to say it, I have my own life to live, not my Fathers, even though I deeply love him. =(

The *only* solution that I see is for him to be done with this garbage. ;(

The most I can do is ask a vague question or something. Hardly anything that will make him extremely doubt. For instance, if I asked what evidence is there of the Bible, I would be labeled as questioning, rebeling etc. My question would largely be ignored, only because I am baptized and too mature for that question. It should have already been answered to them. Now if someone else does it, it would look very very innocent. These are natural questions a potential member would ask.

I cant print anything out because he wont read "apostate" literature, even if it's scientific etc. If it questions religion it is a big no no. It is what they are taught to prevent the church losing members.

There really is no other way.

Regarding the 2 points you bring out of the Bible:

You are largely forgetting to look at it from a fundamentalist's view. "With God, ALL things are possible!" That scripture is read almost every month at the church. I do believe it was even the year's scripture once. This is to override a lot of scientific and geological arguements such as what you mentioned. God could have protected Jonah from the harmful acids, etc. in the fish. He could also make the fish move where it normally wouldn't move.

Regarding the rivers: I do believe there was an explaination for that in the JW literature. I will look look it up tommorrow. It vituperates it. I will see if it makes any sense tommorrow. Thanks.

It may work, but even if it does and he sees this and all, what is going to happen? He will probably reason, and "wait on God" for the answer. I mean, that one thing isn't going to make him ask me to do some research for him, I don't think. And I will still be too scarred to say anything further....

Are you willing to do this for me? I know you are probably busy and all. I would truly appreciate it, and if you do end up recording it, I'm sure many others will appreciate it, also. Whenever you can do it, whether that be a year from now, I'd be highly greatful. My whole life will change, seriously.

Thank you so much.

 

Well I would think it goes without saying that most atheists are as you described. This is merely the current truth. The logical path. I do not mean that the truth is "there is no god period". The truth is just merely that: the truth. What we currently know. Of course, if evidence arises of a higher being, we will have a different truth. We are truth seekers. I don't want to force my Dad to do anything of course. If he is unreasonable, than so be it. But he should be given a chance.

Why don't I implement them myself? I am beginning to wonder if I mis-typed something, as I am sure I covered this. But that is okay. I covered this in the reply above, also.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Altered by people arguement will not come about with my Dad, as JWs believe it is the inspired word of God, and how could it be inspired if God allows people to mess with it? The Bible must have no errors in it at all. That is what they think. Thanks, but again, any questions and its labelling time with the JWs! Lol. But thank you.

I can do this once he is having doubts, but I need someone to help me with that, or he will never have doubts thanks to the brainwashing.

I never really studied into evolution and theories and all that. Science and math are closely related and I absolutely hate math, sadly. I don't really care for the theories because they truly don't matter. If I believe in one theory or the other what do I get? A prize? Lol. I am content with, "I don't know."

You can understand my desperation in my previous post. I cannot have a meaningful relationship with my Dad if de-conversion doesn't take place, sadly. Thanks to this brainwashing cult. Ah...

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Thank you so much for your post. It will be helpful if he starts having doubts.

 

WTF! I am bad at math too but even quantum mechanics can we understood in their theories without all the equations. Just search for torrents of TTC - this is the excellent site and you can get almost every series through p2p and filesharing and torrents too - http://www.thegreatcourses.com/

Btw, may I please know your age.

 

18. Why?

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

:shy:

 

You do realize these are excuses?

He's depressed. He even acknowledged it. It doesn't matter what he believes because his depression is very real regardless.

So bike instead. The point is to get sun and exercise.

Your top 3 (whatever they are).

Even the most staunch religious person has many values that are not influenced by church doctrine as one of the core influencers for values is raw genetics. Additionally you can say *should* or *should not* in any context, but it is still subjective (i.e. it's only in a person's head).

Yet people who don't murder or steal get murdered and stolen from. I don't think any human alive can avoid insulting or being insulted. What you are proposing though is living by a fear principle. Specifically, don't do something that would prompt others to take revenge on you for. As you continue to observe human history and current news in the word, you may notice that this principle is not compatible with actual human behavior.

Just a side note on your comment "...has no right to be believed in...". Having a right is subjective. Right's don't objectively exist so using them in an objective argument is a poor choice.

Religion is a set of methods for human psychological satiation. Prayer, worship, communion, etc. are all activities that bring humans closer together. The benefit of doing this is resource sharing. If you go back in time 100 years and beyond you would notice that survival was much more difficult. If people came together in a group that brought them closer together then they would cooperate, share resources with each other, and have a much higher chance of survival than outsiders. This behavior is part of our genetics due to the way we evolved as a species. It is what it is. We are in a time now when resources are a lot more plentiful and being the outsider of a religious group doesn't have any survival detriment; however, there are no pressures that would cause believers to not reproduce and believers to reproduce for a million years, so there is no way to remove the behavior from our species.

Simply put, people are hard wired to feel good if they do believe in it. If we lived in a different time (or a different country) then your survival could be dependent on believing.

Genetics. The combined intellect of the entire human species cannot displace billions of years of genetic behaviors.

 

So you got you input the guy is 18 years old , have you seen many 18 years old rational thy are at the age that they know better then the father. I had a punk like that and he volunteered to the navy for 6 years , (that was a blessing ) the society have thought him to respect and appreciate family.Now he is ok, and he learns something from the father

 

Why don't you leave your father to live his own life without your interference?
Maybe he is happier and more fulfilled in his "ignorance" than you are with all your cleverness.
Your attitude is arrogant and headstrong in the extreme.

When most of the doctors and scientists were supporting Hitler's war aims and his racist and euthanasia policies,
Jehovah's Witnesses were going to the death camps to quietly oppose him.