# Paying to help my Dad out with religion

Discussion in 'The Cesspool' started by garbonzo, Mar 10, 2012.

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1. ### garbonzoRegistered Senior Member

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790
Hey guys, I am a regular poster on these forums and have always loved debate. I was raised a Christian. Specifically the Jehovah's Witnesses religion. I was a strong believer in the faith, as I was raised this way. But I was also raised with computers as a research tool and critical thinking. I naively came on here to understand why athiests disregard the Bible when there is proof it is real! It's hilarious now, looking back. If you would like to read that 13+ page thread, you are welcome to search my created threads or for the keywords, "a challenge to athiests" (not #2, mind you)

Now I have a huge favor to ask of anyone who reads this. My Dad knows nothing about computers. So he cant really research the religion as easily as I can, even if he wanted to. He is lazy, and since the Witnesses are so... how should I put it? Well, since they keep knocking on your door waking you up at 9 AM every month, and place magazines everywhere you look, it was easy for him to get brainwashed for lack of a better word. (Most of the members are just as naive as him, so they don't knowingly brainwashing you, they only follow the leaders of the church at their HQ located at Brooklyn, NY; from there they print out literature that indoctrinates every memeber and potential member.) He did no research into the matter. He took the biased JW's view on the Bible, and life in general and it sounded good, so he went along with it. Not researching other viewpoints. As most in the JWs have done.

When a smart person is brainwashed by lies only because of ignorance, I find it very easy for you to convert that person to the truth, if you are smart enough in the way that you go about it and the words you use. The proof is myself. I am my Dad; the only difference is I grew up in the modern era; for the purpose of this context.

So I need help. I know what some of you may be thinking:

1. Why do you want your Dad to know the truth if he is dumb enough to believe in the Bible to begin with?

2. Why don't you show him yourself?

1. I've wondered this myself. I told myself at one time that he would be happier thinking he is going to Paradise when he dies, anyway. He will only become depressed if he knows that what he believed in for about 40 years was just one big lie. So what I did was actually ask him. If he would rather know the truth and be sad the rest of his life or be lied to and be happy. I myself would have picked the latter to be honest; but my Dad with his infinite curiousity chose the former. I was gut wrenched. I didn't know what to do.

Well you know what? My Dad is in a marriage where his wife doesn't love him and yells at him almost everyday, yet he is afraid to divorce her (Even though he can, because she committed adultery, which is the only grounds for a divorce according to the church. Beating your wife? Cut her maliciously? Rape her? Shun her? All that's fine. As long as you don't cheat on her. LOL), because he doesn't want to live alone the rest of his life because he is allowed only to marry within the religion, therefore limiting his options. You can imagine how many dumb, poor, and old hags that are attracted to the religion, lol.

I think that if he knows the truth, he will be able to date again and find someone who really loves him. That will bring him true happiness, not fake happiness.

Also, I can't bear him being lied to every day through the literature he reads. And then speak it to me like its the truth. "You know, I wonder if we will have super powers in paradise?" Or "All these people are crying over X person dying, but X person is probably going to be ressurected in Paradise, while those crying are not going to be ressurected if they don't die or become a JW before Armageddon." True story.

2. If I tell him myself, even stealthily, I run the risk of being completely shunned by my relatives, and even kicked out of the house to be homeless. If you don't believe me, look it up. This is what the society teaches to precent people from learning the truth. I would think it breaks laws, but I guess not. I see no other way than to get someone else to do it.

Why now you ask? My Dad hasn't been going to the church for about 3 months now, because of laziness, health problems and depression. He is having pains in his groin and the doctors don't know what it is, among other things old people naturally get. He is depressed because of his life. Living with someone that doesn't love him, but scared to give her up, but also cant get any responsibilities in the church because of the marriage problem, and laziness because of his depression, he watches TV, stays up late and cant wake up for church, etc.

Now the "circuit overseer" is coming through the congregation. He comes through every 6 months and spreads lies in a more professional manner, which is percieved as especially upbuilding. Everyone is expected to attend, especially if you are discouraged. Of course he wants to go, and he seems serious about it.

Given that he is kind of already having doubts, I don't think much will be needed for him to realize the truth if it is given to him in a smart manner. If anything, it will spark his curiousity. Maybe he will ask the circuit overseer the questions he cant obviously answer, and when he doesn't get a response he is looking for or maybe even shunned for even questioning the religion, he will start to see the light.

If he starts going to church again, he will get what he will percieve as encouragement. Its now or never, probably. If not, now would still be the best time.

I want my Dad to see the truth so bad that I will reimburse you for your troubles if you so desire. I have a $5 Amazon giftcard right now. I know it's not much, but I can also buy you a bot that will make you$5 every 4 days or so (it almost $5 a day, if you run it continuously, but it has a Captcha every so often, so its pretty much impossible to run it for 24 hours, unless you have someone else that uses it or something.). I can offer you this bot and not the cash used to buy the bot because the cash was already converted into another currency I cannot get back or pay you in, lol. Or I can continue to use the bot myself and give you a$5 Amazon GC every week or so until paid off.

Or you can do it for free out of the kindness of your heart, but if you really feel you need to be paid, I WILL pay you. Please don't hesitate because you are afraid of being labeled as a jerk if you don't do it for free. I understand time is money, and please just PM me if you don't want other people to think of you badly. I just ant this done at ANY cost!

I would greatly appreciate if you could do this. You could pretend to be one of his old return visits (people interested in the JW religion) and looked him up in the phone book or something. Act interested in the Bible and the religion for a little bit, asking questions etc. without questioning the authenticity of it at all, and then say, "Well, you know, I've been interested in JWs for awhile, so I looked some info up on them and found this... is this accurate or not?" Something like that.

Good information about JWs are found here: JWFacts.org and of course Google. Please PM me what you plan to say so I can make sure it is accurate and can't be reasonably disputed. If you are a seasoned religious debater, I'm sure you'll do fine on pointing out the Biblical contradictions and errors alone. Again PM me on this, as there are some seeming contradictions and even real contradictions, errors etc. that JWs have been trained to ignore. Use only the best ones, that cannot be explained, if you even go this route. He is a curious person and will talk to you for awhile I'm guessing if you do it that way. If you do it right with just the plain facts, then I think he can turn.

You could also ask him why he believes the Bible is true and point out every so called "evidence" he has. Please be stealthy in your approach, eg. Instead of saying, "There is no proof the Bible is insipired of God at all," say something like:

"I've always wondered what evidence there is that the Bible is the inspired word of God. Do you have any? I'm sure you understand I don't want to just blindly accept the Bible because it says to, Haha."

(He responds with what he thinks is evidence.)

Depending on what he says, you could either state a logical fact, or say, "Well, that's funny because I read X and it makes sense to me, does it not make sense to you?" Like if he states a prophecy that "came true" or something, lol.

This seems to be a better approach to me. Let the burden of proof lie in his hands. If you need to look something up that you don't know, don't say, "Let me look this up and I'll get back to you," because he might not answer next time you call. Instead you can say something like, "Okay. Well, very nice talking with you, you've definately cleared up a few things for me. I may be interested in a Bible study at a later date. When is a good time to call?" Etc. Then the next time you call you could say after formalities, "Well I've done some research on X and...." That way he is already talking to you.

He always thinks he's right and the society is perfect. Wouldn't even admit the society made a grammatical error.

This is good because he would rather use his own brain than look up some biased literature published by the religion. No doubt he will probably want to call you back after a few minutes he realizes he really doesn't know, so that he can get me to research it.

Google Voice offers free calls to US, so you could do that if you don't want to use your minutes, you could also pick our area code. I can help with all things technical. If you could record it (I can show you easily if you dont know how), it would be so awesome to the athiest and ex-JW community. I actually do have some website construction skills, so we can split advertisement profits if I build a website around these recordings. Especially if you can successfully "de-covert" him, which I really think is possible, as he really is a curious and reasonable man. I can spread the link around digg, reddit, forums, etc. It could even go viral.(no legal problems, as my Dad doesnt use computers at all) It's
all up to you, I'd just appreciate it if you can talk to him!

Please PM me if you want to do this and with any questions please post here. Thank you so much!

I've posted a bit more of my Dad's story here, if anyone wants to read it. I got no help on that forum as you can see, though, as it's not nearly as active as this forum, and the forum software sucks serious balls:

3. ### garbonzoRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
790
Doing this for me can make you hundreds if not thousands of dollars. Read the last part of the post to learn more, if it was too long for you to read. (You may want to read it then)

5. ### araucaBannedBanned

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4,564
I am probable as old as your father, You sound as a smart ass as one of my sons , and you think you found the truth, What truth did you found ? You expect that God will jump in front of you and tell you he is god.
That is why they crucified Jesus he said he is son of God.
You think because you are in the computer age and you can search information so you found the Truth> I am an old chemist I worked in research for 17 years in product development 23 years and several years in analytical chemistry. I find fascinating how a living cell functions , how all the organelles work in harmony , how some chemical do one thing an other have their own function to help the cell to be alive. Now I will ask for some to explain the truth how it all that came together and function.I definitively don't accept the BS from atheist about the primordial soup and the billion years of random interaction. I need a biochemical explanation .
Now how that all come together I DON'T KNOW .
What I believe what happen to religious people they the hang up of heaven, that is fine so they are disciplined and they stay put, Think about yoiur father if he would not have the hope of heaven . Think about yourself what kind if individual you are or you will be , you already are suggesting to your father to go shop around . In the last 50 years we have this inclination to hop around . Think what kind of family stability will we have in the future.
You are a kid probably in the late 20 give yourself 20 years more , and you will see that your father is not so dumb .

7. ### keith1Guest

You sound like the real smartass here, more likely like your own father.
If there were no cells, then there would be no you to study them. No paycheck, no food, different path.
The cells maybe survivalists in there own right, but studying them does not gain for you their like power to be able to exist.
You birthed your son into a world that hasn't exactly given you any carte blanche to think as you do, and your excursions that don't correct your father's smartass excursions...well...this may be at the heart of your families apparent...future instability.
In 20 years they may more than likely increase their dismay of their fathers path, low-intellect attitude, and gargantuan ego, as it becomes even more apparent just how much that path has done them damage.

Next.

Last edited by a moderator: Mar 11, 2012
8. ### araucaBannedBanned

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4,564

You are a bitteer individual to your family , I believe as my sons are getting older 23 and 29 the family is even closer then before. They were bread in this society of so called freedom and let the individual empress them self. Now one of my sons have a masters in biotechnology, and applied for medical school and an other operate a multi million business
So here you are wrong in your thinking.
American family used to be more stable in the past because of respect to God, but now you have over 50 % divorces, Why do you think this instability is taking place ?

9. ### BalerionBannedBanned

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Marriages used to stay together under threat of excommunication by the church, which used to matter. That only meant that women had to stay in brutal, abusive relationships with no hope of escape because leaving your abusive husband was worse for you than staying with him.

Thankfully, we've come to realize that society does not hinge on whether or not two people can stay married.

10. ### keith1Guest

Because you spent all day at the office for way too many years, trying to bury the sadness of your lost childhood, which you blame on your father.
Your children find you boring, and are frightened in their middle years, that they are turning into a clone of you.

11. ### araucaBannedBanned

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Sorry you really have a screwed up concept of understanding life and its objective .

12. ### araucaBannedBanned

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There is ni good reason to be abused . The book of life ( bible ) teaches us respect each other , Why don't we ? After we get married we forge the so called first love Why?

13. ### garbonzoRegistered Senior Member

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790
Where do these people come from? Just post in a topic all of a sudden, lol.

All I expect is there to be evidence. Would you like to provide some?

There is no evidence Jesus existed.

Yes, of course. There is no evidence everything in the Bible is 100% truth.

If you don't know, hop on to the wagon, as we all don't know. Why believe in the Bible if you don't know? Very contradicting.

In all those years, you haven't gone past 4th grade English?

I've already wrote about this. Also, Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe most humans will go to heaven. So you are saying my Father should stick to a bi-polar wife that yells at him everyday, and cheats on him rather than finding someone new? WTF?

What kind of individual I will be? I will be a much better individual. I've already become much better after finding the truth. What does family stability have to do with anything? Before religion, the whole village would raise a child.

I will know much more in 20 years. I don't see how it could change my opinion of my Dad currently, even if some evidence pops up that some higher power exists. That is because my Dad has done no research into this topic. I don't want to be like that. I don't take everything I hear from someone as fact.

Back on topic: I would really truly appreciate it if anyone can do this for me!

14. ### BalerionBannedBanned

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Clearly, you've never read the bible.

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17. ### wynn˙Valued Senior Member

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Look over the index and the introduction. If you still see no point in reading it, then don't read it ...

18. ### aaqucnaonaThis sentence is a lieValued Senior Member

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If this is really about your dad, than you must realise that such situations are not about having it your or his way - the only best solution is a compromise such that the best intrests of both parties are conserved. Will reply in detail later.

19. ### araucaBannedBanned

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I read the bible not to look for so called the truth . I read it to see a way of life , things to do and things not to do.
I don't know what do you read it for ?

20. ### AriochValued Senior Member

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@arauca --

So you cherry pick the bible then?

And asking believers whether or not they've read the bible is a fair question considering that the bible is one of the least read books, even in an overly religious society like that of the US.

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22. ### Crunchy CatF-in' *meow* baby!!!Valued Senior Member

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garbonzo, there is 0% chance of your father walking away from religion. He told something very important that made your guts wrench, but he was honest when he said it. Specifically, he values how he feels more than truth. Most people do and it is perfectly normal for our species.

Regarding your father's marriage, he chose to be married to this person. He knew what he was getting into and if he wants to end it he knows how to get out.

Now, let's talk about you. When you came to sciforums as a theist, you apparently valued truth more than how you felt. After unsucessfully trying to make theistic claims stand on their own weight of truth, you naturally abandoned theism. While you know that you value truth very highly, you also have to figure out what else you value highly. For example, do you value purpose? If so, how do you attain purpose in a healthy way? What are the consequences to your health if you don't attain purpose? Understanding your most important values, having healthy outlets to fulfill them (that don't sacrafice values of high importance), and understanding the consequences of not fulfilling them all play a part in a strong and healthy self-identity. When you have kids, they will pick up on this and learn from it. While you can't determine what your kid's values will be, your presence will serve as an "example" and strong influence. In other words, you could very well stop theism in its tracks for your branch of the family.

Last edited: Mar 11, 2012
23. ### garbonzoRegistered Senior Member

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790
Then why are you calling me a smart ass? You can't have it both ways. If you believe in heaven as described by the new testament, then you have to believe all of the new testament.

If you want advice on how to live your life, why the fuck would you consult a 2000+ year old book? A lot of things are outdated. Such as it's view of homosexuality. Read a popular modern advice book.

What I see in you is that, you were once a strong believer, you then realized there are many errors in the Bible and that it cannot possibly be God's inspired word, but you still want to hold on to it, because it was such a big part of your life.