Pathetic Pathos: The Incel Hour

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Apr 25, 2018.

  1. Bells Staff Member

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    Feeling hurt and even angry and upset is normal.

    Hating all women, viewing them as sub-human, believing all women should be subservient sex toys and have no fundamental human rights, no free will, no say over their own bodies is completely abnormal.

    Elliot Rodger and his ilk are directly to blame for how they respond and react and the hatred, misogyny, sexism, bigotry, racism and violence they espouse.
     
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  3. pluto2 Banned Valued Senior Member

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    I think there could be some kind of biological or even a neurobiological component to this.

    I mean a genetically inferior guy during the hunter-gatherer days, or well before actually was a threat to the woman and chances of passing on her genes.

    Women who were more selective for traits that conferred a greater chance of survival obviously had kids with better genes who had a better chance to survive. Aversion to genetically inferior mates is probably hard-wired into some younger women.
     
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  5. Bells Staff Member

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    And you keep applying something completely unrelated to something that is provably wrong and false.

    Projection and mimicry..

    You can't come up with your own?

    Secondly, we take note of what they write and say, because they are telling us how they feel and why they are doing it.

    Are you telling me that if a terrorist leaves a manifesto, we should just ignore it and disregard it because they clearly don't know what they are on about in regards to why they did what they did?

    Tell me, does this only apply to misogynistic terrorists? Because I'm pretty sure when a terrorist straps on a suicide vest or flies a plane into a building, or drives a vehicle into a bunch of people, we all take what they say or may have written down beforehand as gospel as to the reason for their actions. Why do you suggest we treat incels differently?

    You want us to designate incels like Elliot Rodger with the same label as Ted Bundy.

    Literally. And for some reason, you seem to think that I should take you seriously?

    Ya. He was a narcissist. But his killing spree was not sexual. He didn't derive sadistic pleasure out of it. He wasn't aroused by it or by the thought of it. He wasn't punishing women because he got off on it. He wanted to punish women and the men they dated because he hates women and views us as being sub-human.

    What?

    Do you even know what a psychosexual disorder is?

    Psychosexual disorders tend to fall into 3 categories. Psychosexual dysfunction (ie they cannot get or maintain an erection), paraphilia and gender identity disorders.

    Pray tell, which one do incels fall under?

    Why wouldn't we take what they say at their word?

    These men are literally saying "we hate women, we want to kill all women, women are subhuman and deserve to die" and you are saying we should not really pay too much attention to that because 'yo, these guys are the same as sexual serial killers and apparently suffer from a psychosexual disorder and it's not really about women'?

    We take what they say seriously, because what they are writing and saying points to motive.

    Do you understand how that works? When someone commits a crime, say like a terrorist act or a mass murder, we actually look for motives.. Which means we go through everything they have said, typed, posted online, filmed themselves saying. When Anders Breivik killed a bunch of kids after trying to blow up leftist politicians, we didn't dismiss his manifesto because 'bleh, dude's obviously crazy so we should ignore what he's saying his motive is'.

    Yet, you are suggesting we should disregard what they are saying their motives are because you read a book on the classification of serial killers.

    Once again, I do query what your motive is here...

    Is this because 'not all men'?
     
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  7. Bells Staff Member

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    The reason men like Elliot Rodger and his ilk cannot find a "mate" is because they are angry, entitled, rage filled, hateful misogynists who are also creepy as fuck.

    It's not about inferior genes. It comes down to women avoiding men who literally hate them and wish to do them harm.
     
  8. Truck Captain Stumpy The Right Honourable Reverend Truck Captain Valued Senior Member

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    there could be. there seems to be a direct link between depression and loneliness [Bekhet & Zauszniewski, 2012], so "Involuntary celibates, then, can be theorized to have high levels of intimate loneliness, and many also struggle with depression." [D. MacDonald 2016].

    there is also a matter or patience of persistence:
    Taking all that into consideration, it doesn't help if the incel then finds a hate group (like the online forums) that allows them to not only stew in their depression but then reinforces their problem with misogynistic hate-filled dogma making it harder still to socialise. Follow that up with the cult-tactic of repeating a mantra which helps them then excuse themselves of any responsibility for their own actions and ...

    the incel, regardless of their sex or sexual orientation, will not be socialised or normalised unless they change the situation positively (like CBT).

    .

    you're the one projecting, sunshine.

    but we don't wholeheartedly accept their words as being a legitimate representation of their situation any more than we take the writings of the various serial killers as gospel because (shockingly enough) narcissistic manipulators leave these things behind in order to:
    1- justify their actions
    2- get attention
    3- leave a "legacy" or set of teachings in order to allow others to follow in their footsteps


    no, and you know I'm not saying that.
    I'm saying that you can use the information to help with a forensic diagnosis of the person but you can't assume that the information is a correct representation (you know, like you're wanting me to do) unless you can validate that information with some secondary unrelated source material, which is usually something held back in the investigation (and prosecution). Knowing all the information is key to determining the legitimacy of the "manifesto", you know, as they did in the Burgess, Douglas studies (which lead to the whole profiling ISU team) ... that reference I've repeatedly told you to look at.

    I stopped reading there: given that the best you can do is keep repeating "read their manifesto" and simply accept mass media opinion/reporting as gospel, and you've nothing further to add to the conversation other than your repeated mantra sans objective evidence, then I'll quit this discourse with you, especially considering your history with me and with reference materials
     
  9. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    It would be best if you kept the nicknames to yourself. To the one, I don't like or appreciate it from strangers on the internet, to the other, it's also quite demeaning in the context of this discussion.

    I think if someone commits a crime because they adhere to a particular ideology, people should not bend over backwards making an ass of themselves trying to change their very obvious motive...

    But that's just me.

    You seem to believe that misogynists who openly and repeatedly declare they hate women, want to kill women, do kill women, think women are sub-human and thus, not deserving any rights whatsoever, that it's not really about women... Because you read a book on profiling serial killers, so it must all be sexual..

    You appear to be hell bent on diminishing their misogyny by denying it is the cause of their crimes and their motivation. So much so that you would rather ignore their words, because you rather try to make it into something else altogether.

    And it's goddamn dangerous. Not to you. You're male.

    It's dangerous to me and other women and girls. Why, should be fairly obvious. By inferring that we should not take their words at face value, you are literally endangering women. I can only hope you do not say this to women in your life. Because if we keep ignoring the risk these men pose to us, it will result in more deaths. If we keep ignoring why they are committing these crimes, if we ignore their misogyny, if we try to mislabel it because it makes men like you uncomfortable to accept that yes, misogyny does mean women die to men like this, then we are endangering our lives. Which is why I find your argument in this thread not only downright dumb, it is also dangerous.

    You may not accept their words as being a representation of their motives. You can ignore it at your leisure. You're male. Your "we" encompasses men like you. So you have the choice to ignore their words.

    We ignore it at our peril. Because these men are literally out to kill us.

    So yes, I do take what they spout very seriously. Because my life and the lives of other women depend on it and we've been told to ignore it for so long, that it is clearly not working and women are dying as a result. We know their words are legitimate representations because they then go out and commit mass murder as they said they would and their aim, has been to murder women. As they said they would.

    But you just did say that.

    The difference to you is that an incel who goes on a killing spree wanting to murder women, is not a terrorist. Despite the fact that their actions and radicalisation follows that of a 'traditional' terrorist. You don't see these killings, this form of radicalisation as being terrorism. I mean, you aren't the victim. You're fine.

    I'm pretty sure that if someone says they hate women, and they want to kill all women and then they go out and murder women, that it's a pretty good representation of their motive.

    Well of course. Because residing in ignorance is your strong point.

    Given you have essentially spruiked a book that you clearly did not understand, applied a diagnosis that you truly did not understand (guessing that's why you are avoiding answering the question as to which kind of psychosexual disorder you declared they suffered from), because you are so determined to change the context of this discussion to be about something else entirely.. Actually, I don't think ignorance applies here. Malicious intent is more applicable.
     
  10. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    It’s interesting to note as I’m following the exchanges here, that it would seem like some/many men don’t really believe that misogyny is a real thing. Racism is real, and we call it so. But, when it comes to poor treatment of women or hate speech against women that borders into threats, harassment and deviant behaviors, many men feel the need to define it differently - as if misogyny doesn’t really exist and women shouldn’t take it personally.

    Reminds me of this quote:

    “The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke
     
  11. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    Bingo!

    When 'not all men' becomes 'not all incels'..

    Not going to rehash the fact that we have already covered that per the context of this discussion, we are talking about male incels who spout violent misogynistic ideology against women and some go out and murder women...

    But note the "seems to be predominantly males acting against females"... Seems to be? Because the evidence thus far indicates something else? What?

    And it's so dangerous. When he said this:

    And then when called out, he tried to argue that:
    It is "not about women in any way, shape or form", but he's not downplaying their misogyny? Oh wait no, that's right, incels choose us to hate, because that what allows them to have the most attention to get what they really want, which is to manipulate others...

    Where have I heard this kind of argument before?

    MRA's..

    It's long been an argument of MRA's and incels that women claim abuse to draw attention... So the notion that TCS puts forward, that incels target women because it allows them to have the most attention is not new. It's basically an MRA and incel meme..

    As I said, his argument is not new or original.. Nor is the denial and attempt to change their true meaning new. We've heard it all before.

    This weekend, I made the enlightening mistake of participating in the #YesAllWomen hashtag. I call it a mistake because a depressing number of responses I got for my sub-140 character contribution to the conversation centered around the fact that ELLIOT RODGER DIDN'T HATE WOMEN HE WAS MENTALLY ILL AND BESIDES HE KILLED MORE MEN THAN WOMEN! which is an excuse that it seems gets made a lot whenever the guy (because it's almost always a guy) holding the gun (because it's almost always a gun) is white-looking rather than brown or black-looking. Mental illness. Not terrorism or misogyny or a metastacized perversion of mildly fucked up aspects of American masculinity culture that become massively fucked up aspects when they collide with mental illness or personality disorders. Rodger said he did it because he hates women.

    So do the other forum participants.

    [9:27 AM]: media doesnt aknolwedge the majroity of males' discontentment with current sexual distopia

    [9:27 AM]: its all about HATING WOMEN

    How many times do they have to tell us before we believe them
    ?​

    So men like TCS declare that we should not take their words at face value or perhaps seriously. Because well, they're only targeting women because that really gives them the most attention, right? Because it's not really about us at all. Because they are really sexual deviants and suffer from psychosexual disorders - despite the fact that these men are literally telling us that they want to kill us because they hate us and do not consider us to be human beings. And they are literally committing mass murder to get that point across again and again and again.. And we get men like TCS telling us that we shouldn't really be paying them that much attention or taking their words seriously.. These incels want to kill us. But we should not be taking them seriously because oh wait, that's right.. they only choose to want to kill us because that's apparently what gets them the most attention..

    The irony of that argument is that as a whole, society ignores misogyny and downplays it. Repeatedly. Even when it's the motive behind mass murders. It's described as "social awkwardness" and he appeared harmless...

    It was claimed, at least in The New York Times, that Minassian had “displayed extreme social awkwardness. But they said that he had seemed harmless.” What a world, where an openly “troubled young man who harbored resentments towards women” could be conceived of as harmless, at best.

    What a world indeed...
     
  12. Truck Captain Stumpy The Right Honourable Reverend Truck Captain Valued Senior Member

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    for starters, it's not a nickname, it's more of a ironic hyperbole, much like your derogatory statements about watching too much TV, which I, personally, take to be demeaning and especially targeted considering not only the context, but the history. For two, I don't like or appreciate it that a moderator (and admin, especially considering your background) would completely ignore references that are specifically making a point, underline very clear, concise data regarding crimes, and then spell things out simplistically enough that even a 9th grade reading level can understand it (usually a mandate for government publications, though they may well have moved the benchmark to 5th grade considering the new public education system)


    1- you know absolutely nothing about what I believe
    2- I've made very, very clear statements about what I've seen, what I've read, and why I made the statements I've made. Even you should be able to understand it unless you've an underlying motive to specifically not understand it.

    Because residing in ignorance is your strong point, and you're clearly refusing to actually read the reference material, I'm not going to further reply to you - unless you actually read the references since you're just itching for a fight.


    I'm not saying there isn't misogyny, nor am I trying to redefine it in any way. I'm not saying misogynistic behaviour isn't part of the problem, and you won't find me defending it, nor will you find where I said it doesn't exist, especially within the incel movement as a whole.

    I've used very clear language that is intentionally dumed down for certain posters who've repeatedly refused, in the past, to actually read references or accept those silly things I use, like legal definitions, which clearly, concisely define words, statements etc.

    The incel movement is definitely misogynistic as a whole and is used to incite violence or misogynistic behaviour against women (thread page 7). The actions of the narcissistic violent psychopaths who actually kill women can be classed per the crime manual linked, and they can be profiled using the data linked. Moreover, not every nation agrees with the actions or changes made by the US FBI in removing "spree killer" from the classification manual and grouping them in with serial offenders. This does not in any way affect the Psyche community who still uses the Spree Killer classification to segregate actions which differ from serial offenders (though not all do, see linked references). All of this is clearly, concisely spelt out in the references and explains the reasoning and justification for the stated classifications I've used, supported by the linked references I've provided and the references provided within the manual defining and or explaining the reasoning and justification for the classifications.

    I'm approaching this from the investigative perspective discussing the criminal actions and the individual profiles of those who have killed or tried to kill and I thought I made that clear (also back on page 7). I also made it clear that not all incels meet the criteria being discussed (by me) but all incels follow a potentially violent and dangerous ideology, much like other hate groups.
     
  13. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    Well said, Bells. ^

    It doesn't help too that types like Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris who are sexists in my opinion, have become somewhat mainstream in terms of their views on politics, religion, etc...but, manage to weave into the conversation that ''women are different from men and here's why,'' etc...

    They're always intertwining gender role ideals, etc. into their interviews, blogs and public speeches, but they do it in subtle ways.

    I think that those types of men are sometimes worse than outright angry incels, because they blend in with the background, and aren't a threat (or so they don't seem like it). But, when enough moderate sexists/closet misogynists get together, they become a powerful force.
     
  14. Truck Captain Stumpy The Right Honourable Reverend Truck Captain Valued Senior Member

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    no. there are two separate discussions in that:
    1- all incels (clarified on thread page 7 in mostly monosyllabic words) which include the modern, mostly male hate group
    2- incels who choose to act violently and try/succeed in killing

    I've made it clear which ones I've talked about and when.
    I've also provided objective evidence.

    thread page 7
    learn to read
     
  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Agreed. There's a vast difference between the disaffected guy who finds the incel 4chan group and starts posting "me too!" and the Elliot Rodgers of the world.
     
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  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    The problem there is that men and women _are_ different. Incels (and others) then take a second, unsupportable step of saying "so therefore they should not do X" or "therefore they are not qualified to do X."
    Agreed. It's easy to dismiss the violent criminals of the incel movement as aberrations. But in terms of damage done to the cause of equality, the "guy next door" type can do a lot more damage, because he is harder to dismiss. He "seems like a nice guy."

    A friend of mine went to school with Brett Kavanaugh. She was shocked when she heard about his nomination, because she knew him fairly well at Yale. She started a petition drive to get additional accusers the opportunity to testify. One of her other classmates said "yeah, he was a slime in college, but I know him and his family now, and he's not that way any more. He's a good person. I really can't sign it." After she heard his testimony (and realized how dishonest he was being) she called my friend back and said "where do I sign?"

    There's an insidious tendency to think of "nice people" as nice in every way, until they get overwhelming evidence that they're . . . not that nice. "I know that guy! He couldn't be a Nazi." "He seemed so quiet; he was the perfect neighbor, I am shocked that he shot up that school!"
     
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  17. Bells Staff Member

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    In the context of this discussion, a male starting to refer to a woman as "sunshine" or whatever other term people such as yourself use, is pretty obvious in its intent. It's designed to put me in my place. You may view my comment that Netflix has a lot to answer for in regards to the FBI serial sexual killer profiling book you keep spruiking here, but the only reason that book has made it to mainstream for you to notice and purchase, is because of a very popular netflix series about how that book and those profiles came about (you really should check it out either way. It's very good.)..

    I did not ignore it.

    I dismissed your "profiling" outright. And frankly, your whining that a moderator did it is pitiful.

    I also queried your knowledge about incels - not just those who commit mass murder, but also those who post on their websites and forums.

    Because thus far, you have clearly shown that you don't really have a clue. Because no one in their right mind would classify them as being in the same realm as serial sexual murderers, just as no one in their rightful mind would do so without having done any research on incels themselves. To the one, you labeled them as psychosexual killers by applying profiling for sexual serial killers...

    I mean, you do see how that just does not apply, right?

    To the other, had you done even 5 minutes of research, you would have quickly realised that incels who go on to commit mass murders are classified as "grievance killers" by the FBI and by the Secret Service because of their belief system:

    While only two of the attacks were primarily motivated by an ideology, nearly one-third of the attackers (n = 8, 30%) appeared to have subscribed to a belief system that has previously been associated with violence. Often the attackers’ beliefs were multifaceted and touched on a range of issues, including white supremacy, anti-Semitism, conspiracy theories, sovereign citizens, animal rights, and the “incel” movement. Incels, or involuntarily celibates, are members of an Internet-based subculture of heterosexual males who view themselves as undesirable to females and therefore unable to establish romantic or sexual relationships to which they feel entitled.​

    Do you note what is missing from that classification? Serial sexual killers.

    Why is that?

    Because as I have noted before, incels are more closely aligned to other hate groups such as white supremacist groups.

    And there is one thing that stands out for all of them and one thing that links all of them. Male entitlement. And in particular, white male entitlement..

    In September of this year, William Braniff testified before the US Senate's Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee and in advising about terrorist attacks in 2018 on US soil, advised that an incel shooting spree in a yoga studio classified as domestic terrorism on US soil. And again classified incel killers as perpetrators of domestic terrorism because they classified as a hate group. William Braniff heads START, which maintains the Global Terrorism Database, which is connected to by funding, to the Department of Homeland Security..

    But hey, what do any of them know.. They clearly did not read the profiling guidelines on serial sexual killers....

    When the FBI and the US Army warned personnel about their personal safety when the movie The Joker came out in cinemas, it was not because incels are like serial sexual killers, but because they form part of a hate group and the FBI had identified threats from the group because the FBI monitors their websites to identify possible future domestic threats.. As they do with other domestic terrorist groups online.
     
  18. Bells Staff Member

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    I know that you have twisted yourself into a pretzel to redefine incels so that it's not about women, but apparently about misogyny because they think that's what's going to get them the 'clicks'..

    Normally I would ask why that is. But really, I've had enough of your mewling because "not all incels" to actually care.

    You have.

    And none of which was actually about incels.

    Had this thread been about sexual serial murderers, your input would have been invaluable.

    But this thread is not about that. It's about misogynists who have formed a sub-culture online where threats and violence against women is the norm and some of whom have gone on to commit mass murder because they hate women, they think we are subhuman, and they are entitled males and believe women should pay.

    Just because there are control and subjugation does not mean that incels would classify as serial sexual murderers or be seen as being like them. Incels are grievance killers, who believe they are entitled to whatever they want, and what drives them is their hatred of women, because they believe women are denying them what they feel they are entitled to. Their ideology is often connected to white supremacist ideology and racism and homophobia is also common on their website.. Which is why they are linked to hate groups or designated as hate groups.

    I have read your referenced material.

    That's the interesting thing..

    You think that I have not read it. I have. But you cannot accept that it's being dismissed outright because it does not apply here, just as your repeated comments about how it's not really about women was not taken seriously by the women participating in this thread so you doubled down. Because god forbid we actually know or understand misogyny and violence committed against us because of misogyny and supremacism.

    Are there similarities in regards to control and subjugation? Sure. Are incels sociopaths or narcissistic? Yes. That was never in disagreement. But that does not make them like a sexual serial killer nor are they known or identified as sexual predators. They do not get any sexual pleasure out of their murders. Their mass killings are for revenge, because they hate women and feminism. What drives them is not a sexual urge. It's hatred and misogyny.

    Here is what you did say:

    Which really, still blows my mind.

    Then came this doozy:

    Because you aren't downplaying their misogyny by repeatedly declaring that it's not about women at all?

    And then of course, in that same post, you threw in "not all incels", because apparently we are unable to make the distinction..

    So, it's misogyny, but not really about women at all..

    By saying it's not about women, you are redefining it. Because their main issue, their biggest gripe and the group they hate the most are women.

    The group they pose a direct threat to, are women.

    The group they threaten on a daily basis on their websites and forums, are women.

    The group they dehumanise and have declared are not worthy of any human rights, are women.

    To suggest that you aren't trying to redefine all of this, after your arguments in this thread, is laughable.

    Oh hey, in a thread about incels, misogyny and control, a white male starts whining that a woman is not taking his argument seriously, ergo his arguments must be "dumed down".. How strange and unusual.

    You classified them as sexual predators and then diagnosed them as suffering from a psychosexual disorder - without actually understanding what psychosexual disorders actually are (and you have repeatedly dodged questions seeking clarification for your diagnosis - that's when you started the 'I'm not talking to you anymore' spiel). While categorising their mass murders as sexually motivated crimes, when all evidence points to the contrary, you dismissed that their issue is about or with women and then trying to argue that they are misogynists.. While seemingly not understanding what that word means given you repeatedly argued that it's not about women or has anything to do with women.

    And you expect to be taken seriously?

    So much for not taking to me anymore, huh?

    This has already been addressed repeatedly. We get it. #notallincels. No one is saying all incels are mass murderers.

    All incels who belong to these groups, however, hate women.

    And all incels who have gone on to commit mass murders were motivated by their hatred of women.

    You have kept spruiking a book. That is not related to the subject matter at all.

    Right back at you!
     
  19. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    It's pretty close to the definition of incel. Incels are angry that women reject them, and feel entitled to affection from them. (Of course if they by some chance achieve that, then they're not incels any more, which is therefore an odd goal to have for one who self-identifies as an incel.) But you're right, in that they can be angry at them without hating them - although most incels don't make that distinction, if their posts are any indication.
    Probably because he was an incel.
    100% of pretty young girls (to an accuracy of at least five decimal places) will give all their love and affection to other men but never to you, or to a specific guy you know. (Or to me for that matter.) That's just math.
    He wasn't rejected by millions. I'd be amazed if he was even rejected by 100 - because being in a position to be rejected is a position most incels don't put themselves in. They prefer talking about their victimhood.

    So let's say he was rejected by ten. Sure, anyone would feel hurt. Just as one might be hurt by losing a job, or finding out that they had a serious health condition, or any of a dozen reasons. One can then decide to do something about it - or go on a killing spree.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
  20. Bells Staff Member

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    I think it was actually less than 5, if that.

    His anger was that women did not flock to him. Because he saw himself as superior, women, pretty blonde women to be exact, should have fallen at his feet and basked in his superiority. There was one incident that he recounted, where he saw pretty young women and mostly blondes, playing football in a local park with a bunch of guys. Essentially a group of friends playing a game of football. And he recounts being enraged by this, and going out to buy a water gun and putting juice of some sort in it, and going back to the park and soaking them with the juice, because how dare these women, blonde women that he prefers, not come to him and instead go towards men he deemed to be inferior.

    Then we have Michael, an incel who had apparently moved past these sites, one of which he administered, because he recognised that they weren't helpful to him:

    After several years in Boston, Michael still hasn't dated anyone or followed up on any of the crushes he's had: "I still kind of assume that, for whatever reason, she's gonna say no."

    A woman from the hiking group asked him out, but he didn't feel any chemistry: "I just couldn't get interested. Which was, you know, frustrating."

    Because he feels psychologically younger than his age, he says he'd like to date younger women whose contact with the opposite sex more closely matches his own. "I wanna feel like we're doing it in the beginning, or somewhat close to that."

    But why, I wonder aloud, would a woman necessarily need to be younger than him to have a similar level of experience?

    "I'd be too suspicious," he replies. "How come no guy wanted to date you?"

    I can't quite believe what I'm hearing. This is Manosphere 101: the exact type of myopic, double-standard nonsense that I'd thought—or allowed myself to believe, in pursuit of a tidy redemption narrative—that Michael was working past, or had put behind him.

    With guys, he goes on, he understands longtime celibacy. They're the ones who have to do the asking, put themselves out there. But women? "If you're attractive enough for me to want to date you, there's gotta be a reason someone never showed any interest in you. Or maybe someone did show interest and you didn't reciprocate. And then I would question what your values were."

    But what about the girl from the hiking group? He hadn't reciprocated.

    "Yeah," he says. "I'm just saying, like—I don't know. It would be just a.… You gotta have some way to—you gotta have some set of standards.
    "​

    The author tried hard to paint Michael in a positive light. But really, Michael was not helping himself:

    "The bulk of my anger is over the fact that virtually all women are dishonest to the point that even they themselves believe the lies they tell."

    "The reality, and I make no apologies for saying this, is that the modern woman is an impossible to please, shallow, superficial creature that is only attracted to shiny things, e.g. looks and money…."

    "I think feminism is the most destructive force in history."

    Michael is not an incel like Elliot Rodger, but he is still an incel. The misogyny he displayed throughout the article cannot and should not be ignored.

    Like Elliot Rodger, Michael rejects women who do not fit his ideal. For Rodger, it was young blonde women. For Michael, it's women who are pretty and much younger than he is, who have not had a lot of sexual partners.
     
  21. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    39,397
    Excuse me?

    You're talking about a guy who killed a bunch of innocent people and injured others.

    What's wrong with you?
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2019
  22. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,266
    The echo chamber of incel forums--and all of the "manosphere" gathering places--amplifies and reinforces their bizarre convictions about these perceived fundamental "differences" (beyond the basic differences, i.e., anatomical, etc., acknowledged by everyone), but I am somewhat perplexed by how they arrive at these notions in the first place--stuff like this:
    https://www.elle.com/life-love/sex-relationships/a33782/involuntary-celibacy/

    An outsider, completely unfamiliar with the phenomenon, might deduce that all of these guys are products of all-male boarding schools or something.

    Obviously, a lot of these notions about certain fundamental differences are reinforced by mainstream culture, as well, but actual lived experience ought to be sufficient to convince people otherwise. Moreover, incels are overwhelmingly millenials and gen z--they grew up in a world that, while quite far from perfect or ideal, is largely desegregated with respect to the sexes. (Again, I'll note, still far from perfect--girls are still actively discouraged from pursuing STEMs interests and so forth.) A person really has to go through life with blinders on to even entertain some of these beliefs.
     
  23. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,635

    A variation on the old joke. He'd never want to date someone inferior, because he wouldn't want to lower his standards. And since he's no great catch, any woman who would want to date him is by definition inferior.

    Also notable that they seem to see women as without agency. Women don't date guys; men decide they want to date them, and then (at best) they decide by "holding out" or "giving in."
     

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