Pastor Terry Jones as a representative of American actions and values

Is Pastor Terry Jones the Face of America? Isn't his opinion of Islam/Muslims what most Americans consider to be true anyway? He's only burned a book - when compared to the deaths of children [the price was worth it], the torture and killing of civilians [birth pangs of the New Middle East], the indifference to the destruction of millions of lives [Operation "Enduring Freedom"] and apathy to the death of innocents [we don't do body counts], it hardly seems worthwhile that so much media attention is focused on an old man burning a book in his own church at home.

Why do you suppose people give so much attention to irrelevancies and miss the forest for the trees? Is the action of one crackpot more significant than the daily continued actions of the whole state?

 

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He's no Mawdudi, that's for sure.

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Personally I consider Pastor Jones a symptom of the malaise, rather than a cause. Its not like the last 10 years in Afghanistan have been without riots, demonstrations and deaths - or even the killing of foreign troops. Innocent children get killed there by Britney Spears imitation troops [oops I did it again!] on an almost daily basis.

So some more people died in some riot between natives and occupying troops in Afghanistan - after 10 years of occupation, its hardly news. And yeah, five of the people who died were Afghans, not that any one cares.

Thats exactly my point. Do you think any American is likely to address the killings, torture, deaths and destruction of the countries and peoples

Nope they are engrossed by irrelevancies. People dying in theory being much more relevant than all the volunteers killing people in fact.

 

lessons never learned by whom? The people occupying Afghanistan or the people resisting occupation?

There is a reason Brittania does not rule the seas anymore. Do you think westerners will ever grasp the concept of sovereignty for other peoples?

Do you think Afghans who have been killed and tortured for ten years their country occupied and destroyed have a right to be offended by the sanctimonious occupiers who tell them to get a clue?

 

Who is left to be inspired by Pastor Jones? Aren't they all already enlisted in the war on terror?

 

I'm not sure I'd call it hypocrisy. I don't know what you'd call the heavy media coverage of

"OMG HE BURNED THE QURAN"

over

"OMG THEY JUST BOMBED SEVEN KIDS"

Obviously some things are more important than others, but what makes them important?

 

Pastor Jones is one face of America, the fanatical and ignorant theocratic kind, not all too different from the enemies of secular democratic civilization who we are fighting and beating in the war in Afghanistan/ Pakistan, and not too different from those who caused untold deaths in Iraq on behalf of the Al Quida/ Baath party alliance. The sanctions on Iraq were a mistake, allowing Saddam to get rich while his people starved. We should have removed him from power long before that. Iraq's sovereignty was null as soon as it's owner committed genocide on the Kurds.

 

Bells: you have unexplored skills in comedy. I say Mawdudi, Bells thinks "sand-ni**ers". I say Mawdudi, Bells says "he means all of Islam!" The media here flips out that someone's burning a Quran, Bells says "they thinks Islam is bad!" Tiny disconnect, wouldn't you say?

How is it that you can simultaneously take yourselves so seriously, and write this stuff? It's a conundrum.

 

It was reported, and what does it mean to you anyway? If one thing is wrong, does it make the other right? Should we call a time out on the war because someone violated the rules?

 

The actions of the soldiers of Bravo Company (Morlock...what an appropriate last name..) don't fit into our group narrative of American exceptionalism and heroism. Which most Americans have been steeped in.

I think it's a group selection bias effect going on. We don't want to admit we might not be the conquering heroes, so we conveniently screen out info that says we're not. So to use an old media term, those stories "don't have legs," or a new media term, they don't "go viral."

As far as the moron burning the Qu'ran...yeah he's a face of America. Not the entirety, but you see a lot of people of his ilk in the Deep South...these folks never got over desegregation, alright? Why do I say that? they've been trying to bring it back since the late 60's. They put their kids in all-white private Christian schools if they have the funds to do so, or homeschool if they can.
While there's good reasons to get your child out of US public education, I think part of their reason, whether they totally realize it or not, in some cases, is to get their little white children away from those "other" kids.

They are narrowminded, uneducated, and unthoughtful bigots who practice a very exclusionary, ugly, hypocritical, racist, sexist, and xenophobic subset of Christianity.

In other words, malignant rednecks. We have those here. Can you tell I don't like them?

 

I think what we can conclude from all the media hype is that drama trumps death for peoples attention. But if it were Pastor Terry's children [or his childrens children] who were bombed, what would be given more attention you think, the fact that he burned a book or that his children [or children's children] were bombed?

I think Pastor Terry should be sent to Afghanistan on behalf of the Dove Outreach program.

What do you think?

 

A symptom of America

I would note, though, that for Pastor Jones, it's more than ten years. The War Against Terror, as such, is a Straussian beast, an exploitation of the dualism traditional in Christianity, a derivative of Zoroastrianism.

The thing about the Straussian outlook is that it requires a Devil. If the human species should ever find itself on the brink of peace, the Straussians and other dualists will feel obliged to start something, because it is simply impossible to live without conflict.

This is why we pushed the Cold War long after it was essentially over, why we feared the Soviets even after they fell into impotence. Muslims are the new Soviets, the new Commies. Pastor Jones, for the most part of his life, has existed in a culture that depends on this sort of dualism. There is good, there is evil. We are either one or the other. And, of course, our cultural mythos is not going to call us evil. It will always be that mythical them. And, for now, it's Islam's turn to be the evil them in the American mythos.

I do, however, wish some of our international neighbors recognized that Americans weren't paying attention. Pastor Jones is an asshole. And, sure, we can't arrest and pillory him in the public square, but it's a stupid politic afoot.

People like Jones play to their own small circles. The only outside support they get is something akin to the electoral "swing bloc" that is greedy and frightened, but likes to think of itself as the last rational bastion.

It's a simple enough formula: Do something stupid and useless that you know will piss people off. And then complain about how evil the others are for getting pissed off. Any average day, Jones' small circle will feel affirmed. On a good day, though, they'll win a few of those fence sitters who don't like to think of themselves as being as bigoted as Jones and his followers, but really are just looking for an excuse to hop on the bigots' bandwagon while calling themselves rational.

Jones is a symptom of traditional American fearmongering. He is a symptom of human frailty. I think in the context of being representative of American actions and values, we might try a certain juxtaposition.

• The Burnt Qu'ran — As news spreads around the world that the insane pastor in Florida has carried out a kangaroo trial in order to pretend some just reason for burning a Qu'ran, imams around the world urge Muslims to speak out. Most of these appeals are for peaceful protest and, indeed, much peaceful outcry does occur. But in Afghanistan, something goes awry. News reports as of this afternoon couldn't exactly figure it out: Did something set off the protests? Did someone screw up? Were there provocateurs (e.g., genuine enemies) in the crowd looking for an opportunity? For Jones and his ilk, this doesn't matter. Even if it turned out to be a "few bad seeds", or a stunt by Taleban supporters, the outcome still reflects on "Muslims".

• Abu Ghraib — Despite orders appearing to come from on high, the necessary cooperation of various military brass and civilian oversight, what happened at Abu Ghraib is exclusively the fault of a "few bad seeds" of low rank in the military, and nothing about the incidents should reflect on the American people, their nation, or their values.​

Which brings us back to the rhetorical point I think most of our neighbors are going to miss. Diff'rent rules for measuring "us" or "them". For "us", there's always an excuse, or even legitimization. For "them", it's simply that they're evil.

That is the symptom, and Pastor Jones is an acute example.

 

Pretty good wrap Tiassa

As for those questions

Yes of course, there is always opportunism. Hamid Karzai has been making inflammatory speeches against Jones even when the media was ignoring Dove and "Taliban insurgents" or should we say Karzai's mercenaries were part of the demonstrations in Mazar-e-Sharif which has forever lost its reputation as one of the safest places in Afghanistan. Moreover it is hard to say how they arrived at the conclusion that the demonstrations were about the Quran burning rather than the common anti-American demonstrations which are widespread in Afghanistan. How did they know why the people were demonstrating? None of the videos I have seen indicate the reason

e.g. see video here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12949262