Parapsychology is incompatible with physics

Discussion in 'Parapsychology' started by mikemikev, Jan 9, 2015.

  1. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Just as a matter of general interest and an indication of the reason for lack of consistent evidence. Let me ask you this simple question.

    "If you knew someone was able to read your mind with out asking for your consent, how would that change what you were thinking about?"
     
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  3. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    If you were delusional how would you know?
     
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  5. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Is abstraction a problem for you?
    one of the first signs....hmmmm (joking)
     
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  7. rakovsky Registered Member

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    Hello, Mike.
    You are asking a good question.
    I got into some of the scientific issues in my thread here that I invite you to:
    http://www.sciforums.com/threads/ho...stament-prophecies-and-how-do-we-know.158973/

    One way to address this is quantum entanglement, a phenomenon that Einstein called "spooky".
    The issue is that two particles of matter separated over far distances could remain somehow entangled so that impacting one particle can directly correlate to a change in the other particle, even though there is no apparent connection causally between the two events of change and impact.

    Scientists also have a theory that this entanglement relates to the possibility of retrocausality. Rather than thinking about the past as really vanished, it is more accurate to perceive it as part of a time-space continuum where the past still exists and so does the future but they are on different segments of the continuum.

    Another issue is the theory that simply because science does not have an explanation or believes that something is impossible according to its laws does not mean that a "psi" ability - an ability for which there is no scientific explanation - actually is impossible. There are quite a number of abilities that meet this definition of "psi" that nonetheless have a following of acceptance among scholars. Take for example the ability to tell time. Some persons are able to time their brains or minds or bodies so that they can get up very close to an exact time each day. They could also be able to tell exactly when a minute has passed. Currently there is no scientific agreement for how this process works.

    Another example of a psi ability is electromagnetism. Supposedly electromagnetic fields can have an impact or influence on a person even though there is no known recepticle for picking up and sensing the electromagnetic changes in humans.

    A third example, one which especially concerns animals, is called animal navigation where animals have sometimes trekked thousands of miles to return home.

    Really all you need is to show one psi ability to be correct in order to show that a psi ability is not "per se" impossible even if science would consider it unexplained based on known scientific laws.
     
  8. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    There is evidence that people can detect the passage of time. Some people are very good at it. That isn't some sort of magic.

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  9. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

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    If science actually was overseen by a central establishment with a universal iron-hand, and this objection of "lack of mechanism" (physics-wise) was part of its decrees rather than the scattered opinions of individuals... Then "parapsychologists" would seemingly need to do little more than point out the inconsistency of said institution or governing consensus.

    Which is to say, that establishment would have no problem bringing up the topic of a lack of precursors for making something like "the paranormal" possible. And yet when it comes to the radical novelty of "experience" (the multi-mode manifestations of consciousness [see footnote]), that administration would oppositely be content to declare "experience" a brute add-on which is excused from having to incrementally fall out of pre-existing physical characteristics, building-blocks, and constraints. (Which, BTW, are unavailable apart from intrusions of pseudoscience, thus the hard problem of consciousness).

    Instead shifting responsibility (for the abrupt emergence or conjuring of "experience") from the actual matter components of a brain or computer (and their index of accepted properties and regulating principles) to the conceptual label of "processes" (of a specific kind or nature). The latter being an artificial, linguistic idea superimposed on the structural / relational activities of the concrete matter entities for functional analysis and identification / categorization / descriptive modeling purposes. IOW, that establishment ironically granting causal and generative powers to "physical" in the abstract sense rather than the "physical stuff" itself.

    - - - - - - -

    • [footnote] Erwin Schrödinger: The world is a construct of our sensations, perceptions, memories. It is convenient to regard it as existing objectively on its own. But it certainly does not become manifest by its mere existence. Its becoming manifest is conditional on very special goings-on in very special parts of this very world, namely on certain events that happen in a brain. That is an inordinately peculiar kind of implication, which prompts the question: What particular properties distinguish these brain processes and enable them to produce the manifestation? Can we guess which material processes have this power, which not? Or simple: What kind of material process is directly associated with consciousness? --What is Life? Mind and Matter
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2017
  10. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    2,100
    Is there a reference to these Scientist and any papers on their theory and how it incorporates entanglement please?

    Very true

    The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

    However to prove something is impossible throws up more than a gazillion possibilities of why it (whatever you designate it to be) is impossible

    And it is not the role of science to prove the impossibility of of something

    You make the claim you provide the proof

    Tell the hoards of Scientist who are looking for a research project which can lead to a Nobel Prize

    True one example would rock Science to its core

    None found in at least 130 years so there must be a few rocks still left unturned

    Keep looking for the rocks

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  11. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Does zero (nothingness, nul, zilch, non-existence etc.) exist?
    The most important constant in the universe... does it exist?

    Science relies on zero as a universal constant yet can it prove zero exists? - nope!!
     
  12. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    2,100
    I have contend in many of my post that prior to the Big Bang NOTHING was the order of the day

    I listed it under TOTAL INFINITE VOID

    However those who appear to understand physics more than me said quantum fluctuations poped in and out of existence

    Somehow a collection of fluctuations combined to bring about the Big Bang and a few billion years later here we are

    I do wonder what is ahead of the outward tip of the light beam heading outwards from the furthest galaxy which we can
    see

    Would that be my TOTAL INFINITE VOID?

    (VOID except for our Universe or as some speculate multiple Universe)

    We know what we call space is not truly empty

    Even if matter is almost nonexistent it is still full of radiation

    But could the same be said of the VOID between Universes?

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  13. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    All good thoughts... and using your own metaphor, "That there, is one hell of a large non-rock you are looking for"

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    The point though, that I was attempting to make, was that before science can claim the methodological high ground it needs to show that it actually uses that method and until it can prove zero, nul, non-existence to exist in physics it can not claim the high ground with the integrity that it may wish to. IMO.

    That is not to suggest that science is somehow inferior or other wise incompetent. It is really about looking at limitations and how the scientific method is necessarily limited to events that can be repeated, predicted and have materially measurable consequence.

    Many events occur in this universe that are not predictable nor are they repeatable, especially when dealing with self animated organisms. Does this lacking relegate those events to un-provable, un-explainable and thus paranormal in nature?
    For surely regardless of science's inability to predict etc, those sorts of events do and have occurred.
     
  14. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    2,100
    I'm not sure that any Scientist is looking to prove NOTHING exist

    That seems to sum up the scientific method nicely

    To make it even more, in one way restrictive, it must be repeatable by others than the claimant

    Arrh now we move out of the realm of science so science rules can no longer apply

    Take for example one misnomer

    Sports science

    Excuse me

    The physics in any sport can be explained by science but that is not what those who sprout the words mean

    The proponents prattle on about motivation and being in the zone babble

    THAT IS NOT SCIENCE AND AS YOU CORRECTLY INTIMATED NON REPEATABLE

    The answer is so simple I will leave you to work out why

    Happy to give my thoughts if asked but really

    Short answer

    No

    Long answer

    As above think about it and work it out

    Like UFOs try not to understand something which seems to be unexplainable as something explainable

    Look up in the sky

    Is it a bird?

    Is a plane?

    No it's a UFO

    Which of course means it comes from outer space

    There's a leap which can easily clear tall buildings

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  15. river Valued Senior Member

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    They do , and will always .
     
  16. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    2,100
    If event happens once

    Yes unprovable

    Yes unexplainable

    Paranormal may be which then makes it unprovable and unexplainable

    Yes

    Which still makes them

    Yes unprovable

    Yes unexplainable

    Paranormal may be which then makes it unprovable and unexplainable

    If the event happens more than once and can be observed it might be taken out of the above

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  17. river Valued Senior Member

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    Parapsychology is incompatible with physics because physics is not applicable to the paranormal .

    Parapsychology studies what does not manifest as a physical , thing .

    Physics is the study of physical things .

    Parapsychology is the study of the non-physical , things .

    Hence no surprise that they are , incompatible with each other .

    Yet both have their , reality .
     
  18. rakovsky Registered Member

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    56
    Retrocausality demonstrated with quantum entanglement.
    http://ncu9nc.blogspot.com/2012/05/retrocausality-demonstrated-with.html

    Retrocausality Could Send Particles’ Information Back to the Future

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/physics/retrocausality-could-send-information-back-to-the-future/

    Experiment Reaffirms Quantum Weirdness
    https://www.quantamagazine.org/20170207-bell-test-quantum-loophole/


    I don't need to, as they are already aware of this lack of agreement.

    "No area of physics causes more confusion, not just among the general public but also among physicists, than quantum mechanics." ~ from: Tangled Up Entanglement, The New Yorker
    http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/tangled-up-in-entanglement-quantum-mechanics

    A psi ability is defined as an ability for which science has not come to an agreed explanation based on known scientific processes and information available. There are several examples in real life.

    One is electromagnetism and its effect on humans and whether human beings are able to sense that they are in a strong electromagnetic field.

    • The researchers caution that the results suggest this human protein has the capability to work as a magnetosensor; however, whether or not humans use it in that way is not known.
    http://www.livescience.com/14694-humans-sixth-sense-magnetic-fields.html

    There is not a consensus on this, or on how humans would be able to detect the fields. However, it is considered that Electromagnetism does have an effect on humans and that humans could be able to sense it.

    Humans have ability to detect Earth's magnetic field
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/scien...have-ability-to-detect-Earth-s-magnetic-field

    Humans have a magnetic sensor in our eyes, but can we detect magnetic fields?
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/n...-but-can-we-see-magnetic-fields/#.WPZf32eP7IU

    10 Things an Electromagnetic Field Can Do to Your Brain
    Electromagnetic fields, or electric shocks, have induced specific hallucinations in people. Those who are exposed to them, even in laboratory settings, have caused people to complain about a feeling of people following them, talking to them, or watching them.
    http://io9.gizmodo.com/5851828/10-things-an-electromagnetic-field-can-do-to-your-brain

    This is why I wrote earlier in this thread, message 104:
     
  19. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    4,460
    I have not read all the Posts to this Thread & apologize to those who might have posted remarks similar to the following.

    From Andy1033 Post #7
    Nonsense!! You are the one who does not understand the sun.

    Astrophysicists understand the sun quite well. Its heat is due to nuclear fusion at the core.

    The gravitational force of the sun creates intense heat & pressure at the core.

    Note that heat is actually a measure of particle motion. Atoms at the core of the sun are moving at high speed (as indicated by the core temperature). Pressure due to gravity at the core keeps the particles from escaping prior to there being high speed collisions.

    The high speed collisions cause nuclear fusion, which releases large amounts of energy.
     
  20. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    16,894
    Just thoughts and with all due respect...
    There is an aspect of the sun that is not understood and until the nature of "life" itself is understood will not be.

    Para psychology is about self-animated lifeforms and their interaction with each other and material substances.
    Astrophysics is about material substance only.

    To draw the direct relationship between sunlight, heat, liquid water etc. and "life" is not hard to do.
    When science can explain the relationship between sun and life perhaps it can claim to understand the sun.

    One could suggest that the relationship between life and the sun is parapsychological. (paranormal ) could they not?

    Mankind has been worshiping the sun throughout history and I would suggest that worship is for good reason. ( even if that reason is not understood by the worshiper.)
     
  21. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes they could

    Point?

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  22. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Why would they have to? No particular theory depends on it.
     
  23. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    16,894
    All theories depend on it!
    All values depend on relativity to zero ( nothingness )
    10 is only 10 because 10-10 = 0
    other wise 10 could be any value.
    Zero provides the universal constancy, that provides consistency for everything ( order)..

    I could go on but I will probably get "no where" doing so...

    Zero or nothingness, is the absolute universal constant...

    Michael 345 ?
    Go any asinine comments to make?
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2017

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