Palestinian PM: We'll form de facto state by 2011

Sounds like a good idea. It's a lot of work - are Palestinians up to the challenge?

 

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but it would be more like poland demanding land from germany

 

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Yes, we all know what you think already. Every Israeli baby is sleeping snugly on stolen land and deserves a gruesome end. Everyone else lives on land their ancestors worked and protected for millenia, like yourself.

 

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Maybe they don't but you'd be hard pressed to find any other country where a family was living in sight of their stolen home and was not allowed to return to the home their children were born in simply because they are the wrong tribe. While anyone of the tribe from anywhere in the world can.

You might find a few examples in some places like Rwanda, but no one would consider it an example of secularism and democracy.

Yes, every Israeli baby is sleeping on stolen land, the question is what are they going to do about it?

 

No my family doesn't but I also don't pretend that my country and my families' gain of the land my family is on was in accordance with the law. Each must be judged according to its times.


I expect the law to be followed and there is not normal rational straight forward way to look at the law and say Israel has followed it.

 

Either the Israelis or the Americans, whoever is holding a third of the last elected parliament of the Palestinians in captivity or assassinates the leaders that make a difference.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5252356.stm

Of course, people justify this as "self defence", cannot have Palestinians electing leaders, too dangerous for medieval tribal cabals still holding onto 2000 year olf G-d given leases.

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as a justification for existing.

 

Ah, so let's pick a standard of judgement that's convenient for you and lets you feel morally superior to everyone else. Yes, we'll say that your ancestors were thieves expelled from Britain and sent thousands of miles across the ocean to go thieve from less developed, more helpless people instead. It was the 1700's, that kind of behaviour was "acceptable" in a world that still largely practiced serfdom and other archaic systems. And because that behaviour was accepted then, you should continue to reap the rewards of that theft while others suffer from it, and go on deflecting the blame by casting judgement on a people who have been fighting for their basic existence thousands of years.

Israel, unlike your stolen home, was formed right after half the world's jewish population was exterminated, and in spite of multiple attempts by the arabs to drive jews completely out of the region (reference: Hitler's Mufti). Couple to that the fact Israel has spent 60 years building a state on land that was almost completely unused and available for settlement (as far as international law is concerned), and they absorbed the bulk of the ~800 000 jewish refugees the arabs drove out from their own countries. How many ways do you want to look at this? International precedent says Israel was attacked by the arabs and had the right to take land from them in defense. Then the arabs decided in 1967 that they wanted an independent Palestine after all, so it's their prerogative to come up with the bulk of the lands needed, unless they're content to build it in areas Israel occupied only after 1948. Again, the jews had just as many refugees from the wars as the arabs did, so from that POV it's still Even Steven. I can't understand why you have this pig-headed obsession with annihilating an entire people and way of life, when there are many other ways for the Palestinians to have a sovereign and viable nation.

Yeah I can really see why 300 years after the fact, your aboriginals continue to suffer at the bottom of the food chain in a land of plenty, but Israel, having existed more than 60 years and having a demonstrable historical attachment to the land, is completely up for grabs from the Mediterranean to the West Bank. Well go on then, keep judging them and spitting on the idea of compromise, if that's what it takes for you to be able to look at yourself in the mirror every morning then more power to you. I find when dealing with complaints, the fair and just principle is to deal with the complaints in the order in which they're served. But I don't expect to learn anything about fairness or justice from a man who goes to bed fantasizing about Israeli kids having their arms blown off, and talks about using the outdated morals of his ancestors as an excuse.

Hi. Hello? Yes, hi. Uhm, pardon me for asking, but who the frack made you the arbiter of law? There's this international body called the UN that gave official recognition to Israel in 1949. The recognition is legally binding. There was also a call for Israel to accept Palestinian refugees back into the country after the war, and this was made as a "call", not "demand", making it a non-binding suggestion/request. Maybe you don't like how the UN did things, I don't like it either because of all the historical muslim conquests and slaughters it also legitimizes, but life is unlivable if you can't let bygones be bygones. Then again, I guess once you define your life by spending most of it on the internet looking for ways to hate Israel, you get trapped in that mentality, and the thought of Israel's continued existence is even more disturbing than the thought of perpetual conflict caused by the efforts to destroy it.

Not at all trying to say that Israel is innocent or has acted commendably in the region. Far from it. I believe Israel is in violation of all sorts of international laws, and you could easily argue the same thing for a wealth of countries of all shapes and sizes who aren't themselves under existential threat. But people like me look for ways to improve the situation as it stands, finding a peaceful compromise for everyone. When you talk about Israelis, you make it sound like they're criminals just for breathing the air and for not inviting militant Palestinians to come live right on top of them.

They're not going to sit there and take rockets just to keep you smiling, that's for sure. More likely, they will do what every other person accused of living on stolen land has done, like the muslims and christians and hindus and buddhists have been doing for more than 1000 years- they will stay exactly where they are, and bring pain and misery to anyone who tries to make them leave.

Well that's just a matter of personal opinion on your part. I can go live close to you for a few decades and then start whining about how you guys once stole your house from my grandparents too. In some cases, the claims might be true, and often enough the claim is a load of BS- where's the scientific means of distinguishing? The world is just a wee bit more complicated than that, SAM. Perhaps there are better things to focus on than a 60 year-old shack in the desert fit for only 2 people.

 

Tell that to the Jews.

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http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/photos/news_photos_nov_06_/3ss40x.html

Note: this is how all Palestine was taken.

 

No, that's not how all of Israel was formed, unless you take a select few historians at their word without any means of verification. The West Bank settlers are a different issue altogether, and it's unfortunate that Israel is allowing propagandists like you to use the settlers as a punching bag instead of getting rid of them once and for all.

 

No need to take a select few historians, just read the war diaries of people who were there as stored in the Haganah archives and written out by Israelis.

Meanwhile the Palestinians are on the right side of history and Israel is a settler colonial enterprise that is doomed to fail.

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Only one of them has a future, not hard to see which one.

 

Its not that its convienent for me its the only honest way to judge. and they haven't been fighting for their basic existence for thousands of years.

Irrelevant.

They have never attempted that. Quit believing everything Israel says.

Um it wasn't unused and available for settlement there were people on it.

something that happened in response to them expelling the arabs.

No that is what Israel says but the law doesn't.

The other arab nations but not the palestinians who always wanted their own country.

no they didn't and the palestinians have a legal right to that land.

God why is it you Israel supporters always have to get into comparing suffering?

No that would be you toward the palestinian people. not me toward the jewish.

they need their land back for a state.

ireelevant.

what attachment they ignored it for 1700 years.

its not up for grabs it belongs to those who resided there the palestinains.

I'm not spitting on the idea of compromise I just feel that the Israel's should actually have to make real concessions.

yawn a personal attack from a pro Israel person.

but your ignoring a huge number of complaint to suit your agenda.

??? I don't fantasize about that and my morals aren't out dated.

nobody but I do understand it unlike you.

doesn't make Israel legal

no it isn't.

the first in a long line of the UN doing shit about ISrael's violations of law.

 

pj, you're being dishonest. Yes, Arab armies have tried to drive Israelis into the sea several times, yes, they have expulsed Jews from their lands many times, and yes they have been struggling for their existence for 2000 years. Don't persist in this blissful ignorance about the violence being post-Partition: Jews were being persecuted long, long before Israel rose again.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203946904574300241762121888.html

 

None of the Ashkenazis. Not by Palestinians. Meanwhile, when are the Europeans going to pay for their antisemitism?

 

You know SAM, colonialism is the practicee of invading a country and subjecting its inhabitants to working in miens or plantations etc...

One half the time your saying that Palestine ISNT a soverign country and it is a giant concentration camp, the other half you are saying IT IS a country...

Make up your damn mind.


Any society which fails to feed its population, ensure domestic tranquility, and provide for the common person will fail eventually.

That is why Israel and the United States wont ever die becuase, we feed our populations, ensure domestic tranquiltiy, and support the common person.

In Gaza, there is so little food production you are actually asking teh people you are firing rockets at to give you bread, your military is crap and you have never made an attempt to come to a diplomatic solution, and the fact that your government are corrupt swine that would rather buy ak's than food and water does not sound like providing for the common person.

SAM, Israel wont die, end of story, you have tried half a dozen times and gotten your asses kicked half a dozen times.

 

They gave us Israel didnt they?

 

You didn't read the link.

:shrug: Germany's been paying for some time. How is this related to my points?

 

Germany did not pay as much as the Palestinians did. Maybe Germany could give up their land for the Palestinians?

 

Actually, they paid for the Holocaust with the lives almost nine million Germans or so, as I recall.

 

SAM, the Europeans owe the Jews a debt that can never be repayed, the holocaust is only one of many sinful transgressions that needs to be repayed.