Other Worlds and Creationism

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Yazdajerd, Jun 15, 2005.

  1. Light Travelling It's a girl O lord in a flatbed Ford Registered Senior Member

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    To understand what has an effect on our 5 senses, we have to understand that we really only have one sense, and that is the ability to detect oscillating particles.

    everything in the universe vibrates at differing frequencies. Between a certain range of frequencies our sense of touch will sense it (yes, even solid objects are oscillating), between a higher range of frequencies we hear it, a higher range still we see it and so on.

    There are many things that exist, which oscillate at higher frequencies than our senses can detect. Some of these we have developed electronic equipment to detect for us. Science is currently working on ways to detect higher and higer frequencies as it is believed we will find many more currently unkown things in these areas.

    Remember at one time sceptics refused to believe electricity existed. They also believed the samllest particle was an atom, which we now know is not the case.

    In any case the original statement that started all this is correct. By scienific definition; things do exist which oscillate at frequencies that we cannot detect with our senses. i.e. things exist which do not effect or senses. This is not abstract or theory or belief but hard cold scientific fact.
     
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  3. Light Travelling It's a girl O lord in a flatbed Ford Registered Senior Member

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    By the way. It has never been proved that intellect requires a physical vessel. It can be shown that when we think electronic pulses and chemical secretions are produced in the brain.

    But it has never (even slightly) been shown that these electronic and chemical signals contain the full content of our thoughts.

    We know the brain is used when thinking, we do not know all thoughts are totally contained in the vessels of the brain. You are stating a belief as a fact. The cause and effect of this situation has not yet been determined.
     
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  5. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    We're not talking mathematics here, we're talking space fairies and floating leprechauns. Given that 'some things exist that are completely undetectable, completely invisible and completely unknowable' you're either left believing in anything and everything for no reason whatsoever other than: "Hey, we can't see it so it might be there", or understanding that you're in no position at this time to make any claim that such a being is indeed real - or take that to extremes and then tell everyone that supposed beings future plans, that it wants you to chop some of your penis off, go to a building to worship it or pretend to have morals and damn anyone who doesn't subscribe to your exact belief concerning this completely undetectable, invisible, unknowable entity.

    And then to trust the word of some shepherd from several thousand years ago who thought the world was a pancake.. It's simply insane. It's ludicrous. It is an absolute and utter tragedy to mankind who used all that effort to crawl out of the slime only to crawl right back in.

    One could propose anything he bloody well wants to - that does not in any way whatsoever mean it is worth the attention or has any credibility to anyone sane of mind. We could propose that there's a giant omnipotent banana flavoured ice cream at the bottom of the ocean but it doesn't mean anything. We could propose that the world is flat and that the sun goes round the earth but it doesn't mean anything. We establish reality through evidence, through what our senses can sense. Everything and anything you feel like dreaming of that is entirely and completely "un-sensable", has no place in a serious discussion and is simply not worth the waste of paper or kilobytes it uses.

    Ask yourself sincerely why you don't believe in leprechauns, mermaids, or the other 1 billion and one gods that mankind has imagined and then simply apply it to the one you currently do believe in. It's that simple, and don't for one millisecond think that there's a difference between your personal god and odin, abellio, apollo, tiamat, marduk or lenny the leprechaun.

    Of course the religious person in general wont ever realise this simple reality. Instead he will consider himself completely right, claim he is in a position of 'knowledge' of this completely undetectable, invisible, unknowable sky fairy, bundle it up in a package called 'faith' - which simply equates to "knowing nothing", and then shouts out that anyone who doesn't buy into his personal little daydream is going to float off to a world of torture and misery.

    But what has truly happened? This "being" still remains completely non-existant, much like lenny the leprechaun. "Not mine, mine is real", you hear them say in unison as if they actually have a clue, and all because a book written by a bunch of woman beating, child murdering, animal bonking halfwit sheep herders say so. These guys couldn't even work out what an earthquake was, but yet to the ignorant masses of 2005 they're completely trustworthy all because they said so.

    And yet as time goes by all these completely undetectable, invisible, unknowable sky fairires fade off into the distance. They're no longer causing earthquakes - no, that's tectonic plates, they weren't responsible for the Thai tsunami - no no.. that's now become a natural thing. Plagues? No longer done by god.. No no, he doesn't afflict naughty people who dislike jews with plagues anymore, it's now blamed on rats, (bubonic plague), or monkeys, (AIDS - from SIV) instead of god getting pissed at the locals. Everytime reality steps forward, god steps back.

    In time reality would have stepped forward so much god becomes a forgotten mythology along with the minotaur and banshees. You know it, I know it, we all know it.. You just hang onto it because you'll always have that: "what if? Then i'll burn" idiocy running through the brain that is you.
     
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  7. Lawdog Digging up old bones Registered Senior Member

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    Belief is a prerequisite of Wisdom
     
  8. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Another funny quote - many thanks.

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    "I believe that the world will fall into the sun tomorrow. I am so wise."
    "I believe that my skin will turn invisible in 5 minutes. I am so wise."
    "I believe what some 2,000 year old book told me to. I am so wise."
     
  9. Light Travelling It's a girl O lord in a flatbed Ford Registered Senior Member

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    Are you suggesting that we propose nothing. That nobaody should ever propose anything. That nobady should ever believe that something might be, and then try to investigate it further.

    The process of scientific experiment; come up with a proposal based on a set of beliefs about what might be. Devise an experiment and attempt to interrogate those beliefs to establish the truth of the matter. Except we are not living in a laboratory wher an experiment is conducted in a day, this is the experiment of life which takes hundreds of thousands of years.

    And at this (rudimentary) stage of our evolution, you want to take away proposals and beliefs. Because you already claim to know the truth of everything. Come on!

    I read an interseting article yesterday (the times newspaper), about a Dr Cotton, who operated as a phyciatrist in the early 20th century. He claimed to know that mental illness was housed in disaesed organs and operated on thousands of mentally ill patients - to their obvious detriment. He had the full support of the medical establishment, and in fact 'new' phsycologists like Freud and Jung were considered the 'mad scientists' by the sceptical establishment of the day. So, how sure are you of your so called knowledge.
     
  10. Light Travelling It's a girl O lord in a flatbed Ford Registered Senior Member

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    Wisdom - the ability to perceive correctly and make right judgements accordingly.

    The view that, for the first time ever in our history, all that we call knowledge is absolutely correct and concrete fact and there is no possibility any of it is wrong. - this is not wise.

    I have said it before and I'll say it agin - all of us hold beliefs, we all have a belief system. Some try to say we know it all (religious and areligious alike) the rest of us admit they are beliefs.
     
  11. Lawdog Digging up old bones Registered Senior Member

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    Thats a good start, now try believing for once that someday death will actually end you.
     
  12. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    Not in the slightest. What I am suggesting is that when somebody proposes something that it be given some effort before making a million buildings all demanding money for a leaky roof, before damning everyone else to an eternity of pain and suffering, before telling everyone what is and what isn't, before making a hundred different versions of the very same book that nobody can even agree on, before just throwing all reason and logic out of the window because some shepherd you never knew said the fastest route from A to B is to go via Z.

    Man if Darwin did that you guys would be puking blood right now. If he came up with his conclusions, opened 1 million buildings where some guy told you it was evolution or a pit of fire, and btw give me some money because our roof is leaking you'd be absolutely shitting bricks right now. You'd be saying: "no no! The fairy men say you're wrong", and be demanding that you be given your very basic human rights. If Darwin then said that every bank note is going to say "In evolution we trust", or you had to stand up in school, put your hand on your heart and say: "from pond sludge to giraffe, from daffodil to elephant we pledge our allegiance", you'd be cursing the very day he was born.

    Even now fundamental halfwits will turn round and say: "evolution is just a theory". Doods.. sky fairy belief hasn't even made it to 'worth the consideration' level, but still you'll piss and moan like somebody has actually stepped upon your rights as a human merely by suggesting that life evolves.

    Could you imagine the total and complete bloody anarchy if the world of science dared to infringe upon the rights of the religious man? Imagine if every bloody Sunday the only thing on TV was a three hour lecture demanding money to aid evolution, and if you didn't pay it's off to the gas chambers for you? Could you imagine not being able to walk out your classroom without some asshole trying to shove the origin of species in your face, or could you imagine not being able to go to church without someone demanding that you teach evolution during your sermon?

    As I did mention in my last post: You have the right to believe and propose anything you bloody well want to. Be that leprechauns, Frodo Baggins, or a sky entity that demands you to chop half your penis off. Do as you please - but If you want some credibility, you want to progress to more than just a: "hey, guess what I imagined", you are faced with the burden of actually putting some work into it.

    Edison failed some several hundred times to make the light bulb. I guess he would have ended up a true failure unless he put the time and effort into something he believed in. The same goes for Pasteur and many other great people throughout history. However, Edison did not go around selling stocks in lightbulbs and demanding that everyone worship the light bulb before knowing it was a working reality. And the fact of the matter is that none of the religious ilk know anything about this being they claim exists and claim they know so much about. Nobody has ever seen it, heard it, felt it or been able to provide anything to substantiate it to any degree where it is credible to suggest it's existence. In thousands of years and the very best the religious man has to go by is a book written by some cow milker who thought there was a skydome above the planet with windows to let the rain come through.

    The process of religious experiment: Say something is true and if you don't believe it you'll burn, ask for some money, demand that science is a fraud, demand some more money before stoning a few homosexuals while not having the slightest fucking idea of what it is to 'test', to rigorously test, and not just by one person who can sit on a comfy chair with a stupid ass hat and tell people what's what, but by everyone from all different fields of understanding and expertise.

    If you equated it, it would be like a jew, hindu, muslim, one person from each of the billion christian sects, some ancient greeks, a few sumerians, some wiccans, ufo fanatics, believers in mermaids, and david koresh, all coming together and deciding what was right based upon evidence. First you'd have the largest war in history, then they'd realise that nobody actually has any evidence and that would be as far as it gets - aside from a few more wars for the sake of it.

    And the only way you can actually get any evidence? Die.

    It's absolutely and insanely daft it brings chunks of last nights dinner crawling up my throat.

    As explained above in great depth, you're wrong. I have no problem with ideas, proposals and beliefs - what I have problem with is how some will completely skirt over any need for any work while demanding something is true.

    Lenny the leprechaun exists. Whether you believe in him or not doesn't make the slightest difference other than non-believers will all be tormented forever in a land of soggy dog poop and three week old cabbages. That's true, give me some money.

    It really does not matter in the slightest whether you believe it or not, you'll still be judged for not being man enough to admit it's real.

    Would you like me to propose this idea to the world? Would you like to see me force this view upon your child, upon your family, and to deny you any right to disagree without crass and vulgur insult in return? Would you like me to knock on your door twice a week and shove my book of leprechaun in your face? Would you not feel slightly sorry for the demented idiots that actually dress up and come to bow in front of a stone depiction of lenny the leprechaun? Would you not be a tad upset when a leprechaun follower denies you your right to have sex unless you first go through some pathetic ritual with another leprechaun follower? Would you not, as a child, be slightly confused as to wtf was going on when your parents showed more love and attention to an invisible lenny instead of you, and demanded before you even knew how to talk that you also worship lenny or lenny will take you to a nice hot furnace where you'll be dealt with the same way as all the rapists and mass murderers? Or perhaps everytime you go to court and demand your rights the very first thing they do is tell you to swear to a being you don't even believe exists, happily neglecting your human rights or how lenny followers will look at you as if you have a contagious disease whenver you say you don't believe in him?

    Is that what you want? Of course not, and yet that is what I am forced to live with. A bunch of simpletons scared of living, intolerant of everyone and so naive to how the world actually is that I am sick to my very core. Demanding fellowship, enforcing their ideas of morality, denying me my basic human right to use my penis how I choose, denying me my right to go for one day without their vulgur intrusions, and indeed denying me my right to be me.

    There's the thing, and something the religious man should pay attention to: If you think you've got it right just because you say so, you're an ass. Hell, we're only talking what... not even 100 years ago.. Now imagine how bloody stupid it would be to think that some freakazoid plebhead got it spot on 3000 years ago. Yes my friend, it's utter idiocy.
     
  13. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Agreed - and nothing to do with belief.

    Completely agree. I've also never said that it does.

    And I'll say it again - not all of us hold "beliefs" in the same way that religion requires "belief". Whenever I speak about "belief" in casual conversation it is really nothing more than an assessment of the probability.
    I do NOT have a "BELIEF SYSTEM" that is based on the unsubstantiated, the unexperienced, and the illogical.

    Until you appreciate that difference you will continue to make the sweeping assumption that you do.

    I don't need to believe that - it is fact. Death will someday end me. It could be in 1 minute - it could be in another 100 years. And it will end me. Utterly.
    So what is your point?

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  14. Lawdog Digging up old bones Registered Senior Member

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    The point is that you dont really believe it, because if you did, you wqould try to make right with the Lord.
     
  15. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    What don't I believe? In death? It's a certainty. No need to "believe" in it - it's going to happen 100% of the time.
    In God? Of course I don't. That's why I consider myself atheist.
     
  16. Light Travelling It's a girl O lord in a flatbed Ford Registered Senior Member

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    So you think religious thought, study and practice has not been given any time and effort over the past 5ooo years. Thats either a deliberate falshood to supoort your argument or severe ignorance.


    I fully believe in evolution, why do you say you'll. You seem to lump everyone with any sense of the spiritual ,in with fundamental christianity. How very convenient for your simple and generalised arguments.


    according to the religious, it does all the time?

    Origen of species is shoved in my face in classroom and it is in every classroom. As is the atheist view of the world from 4 years up and you have to learn thi s view and be able to repeat it and if not you fail and then you are victimised for the rest of your life.
    School (england) gives
    science 6 hours per week - evolution etc
    religion (a superficial version) 0.5 hours per week
    philosophy 0 hours per week

    How the f*** is anyone supposed to think for themselves.


    Exactly not just you decreeing what may be believed or sought after.


    You obviously do - hence your rather impassioned reply



    Or you could look at what seems to be a basic human need that throughtout time, in all civilistaion, and on all continents has shown itself to be somehow inherent within us. That is the search for creator, for discovery of our true nature - the search for God.

    And you could then look at the threads of consistency that run through all these attempts at seeking (religious teachings).
    You could look at all the miriad of possibilities that one could just imagine sarting from a blank sheet. But no there is an amazing consistency. It is in fact you who do not take the time and trouble to look for these underlying truths.

    Of course there is argument that these inherent human needs are purely phsycological, which is a view I can understand and there is certainly some measure of truth in. But still of course no evidence. So we still need further investigation dont we. Not just mindless dismissal.


    When I first read this I thought you must be living in the middle of bible belt USA, but I see from your profile that you live in England. In which case you must be almost in a paranoid phycosis, scared of all these 'big brother' type christians trying to run your life and your penis
    Because I too live in england and it is about the most atheist country in the world, much more so than any other european country , much more than the USA and any other country you I can think of in the world except china. I mean the churches in england are all empty, there are probably as many hindus as church going christians in the UK. How the F*** can you feel victimised by christianity here - there is no religious censership on TV (except to prevent hate). In 38 years I have only ever had 1 knock on my front door from an evangelical christian - so what, it did me no harm. And since when di you or I need permision form any religion in england to get married or use our peni.
     
  17. Lawdog Digging up old bones Registered Senior Member

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    Light Travelling has expressed some very important points,
    esp about psuedo-science indoctrination in schools and the state of England.
     
  18. Yorda Registered Senior Member

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    idon'tbelieveittheymightenterthekingdombeforeyou
     
  19. Light Travelling It's a girl O lord in a flatbed Ford Registered Senior Member

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    OK, so we should take a deeper look at your 'knowledge' based reality.

    As I mentioned before your 5 senses are really just 1. and all they do is detect different frequencies of the huge mass of oscillating particles that surround us and if fact make up our bodies.
    There is in fact no such thing as a solid object and no such thing as empty space. Some particles may pass through others. I have experience with microwave and RF engineering, so I have a little understanding of this.

    Your mind takes all this information and then paints a picture for you of what it calls reality. You are limited in your assessment of reality by a) what your senses can perceive and b) what your mind can process, also affecting reality are the conditionings that your mind has recieved from other humans from day one.

    And when we look at this picture of reality I talk of above, that our instruments tell us is there (but our mind struggles to process), we can easliy extrapolate to even finer and smaller particles moving at higher and higher frequencies that will be recogisied eventually as thoughts and as a 'spiritual' world - we may even find spritual entities. So you see it is not just a case of wild and illogical imaginings, and completely unsubstantiated theories. There can be a logical thought process leading up to theories of existence beyond our senses. But it needs acceptance that we do not yet 'know' everything - we have a belief system

    So we can never be sure that this picture of reality our mind paints is actually how reality is. Of course we are all in the same trap of mind and senses. But what I am saying is we 'believe' that this is reality based on current levels of information (which is fine as we need a common model we can all work from). Not that we definatley 'know' this is how reality is.


    I dont think our views are that far apart but I wanted to clarify what I am trying to say.
     
  20. Lawdog Digging up old bones Registered Senior Member

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    Welcome to our discussion. What you have said is true, he may indeed enter the Kingdom before me...On the condition however that he believe, so that, when death ends him, he will start the new beginning, The Resurrection, (which everybody will experience) in glory rather than condemnation.

    For Jesus taught: "He who does not believe, He shall be condemned."
     
  21. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    That's not what I was getting at, but nevermind. In all those 5,000 years and not one testable, observable or supportable theory, not one fact. It's all guesswork supported by more guesswork. Hope supported by hope, wishful thinking supported by wishful thinking.

    It's an open 'you'll'. They are used quite often but I apologise for the misunderstanding. I was hoping it would be taken in context with the short paragraph, where I stated: "Even now fundamental halfwits will turn round and say: "evolution is just a theory". Doods.. sky fairy belief hasn't even made it to 'worth the consideration' level, but still you'll...."

    As you can see, I was talking about fundamental christianity.

    Do you agree with them?

    Ok, being a fact it should be taught in classrooms, but you've missed the context of what I was saying. The next line was perhaps more pertinent but you missed it out.

    Utter nonsense.

    church (England) gives

    religion - all the time
    science - never
    etc.

    Is that not part of the point? And of course it depends on the school. Private schools generally give a lot more time for religious education.

    The rest of the point is focused on how one is a study of what has evidence and support vs something that has no evidence or support. Out of your time scale above, how long is given to study odin? Or perhaps leprechauns? Do leprechauns not have exactly the same amount of evidence to support them as god does, so why should they not be taught about?

    Of course I have no objection to someone opening a leprechaun center and teaching all about them there - pretty much the same as having no objection to people teaching their religious stuff in churches. When it comes down to throwing it at my 5 year old daughter and even trying to pass it as a reality - making her stand up in assembly and say "thank you god for looking after me", I have to object.

    If you consider being indoctrinated as "thinking for themselves", then they could always go to church no?

    When did I imply such a thing? I haven't told anyone to stop going to church - merely that the religious establishments teach religion, (sunday school comes to mind), and schools teach the real stuff - or teach the mystical and fantastical with a very impartial manner, (i.e not getting 5 year olds to stand up and thank god or sing jesus hymns come December).

    I never realised there was a problem with typing with conviction. I like to write, I like it to look interesting and meaningful, but it seems you're reading it wrong.

    What someone was doing 5,000 years ago or 10,000 years ago when the world was a pancake does not in any way give any credit to any belief. You're English, can you name me one original English god? And while I agree all these different gods were imagined by man, the men doing the imagining didn't know very much. It stands to reason that people would envision something of higher power than they, and indeed be scared of it, assuming that natural disasters etc were actions by this powerful being, (It's why all earthquakes, floods etc were attributed to powerful beings as opposed to tectonic plates etc).

    Spend some more time and you'll notice that those gods represent a major part of the region - something that the imaginers saw very often. In Japan their mythology is full of dragon type animals, Indians have elephant and tiger gods, egyptians had crocodile and vulture type gods, south americans generally had snake type gods and so on. The beliefs reflected the environment. Of course the sun was a main player back then in many many cultures simply because the sun can be seen everywhere, by everyone.

    It wasn't a search for gods or creators, it was a search for answers. In those days that was the best answer available. A headache was evil spirits, a plague was a being in a bad mood and so on.

    Consistency is obvious. No matter where you go in the world you'll find natural disasters, (not so much in England - perhaps why we lack our own god) - and these powerful beings caused these natural occurences - from plagues to floods, earthquakes to aurora borealis. As a result to that pretty much every culture will have consistencies there. They would all also generally share a story whereby two people were made/created. It's very simple understanding for these people - man and woman = child so therefore the a man and woman must have been made to have made a child etc.

    Then we need to understand that stories were handed down. When new cultures formed they "inherited" many of those stories, which would as a matter of course become changed slightly. The Enuma Elish eventually becomes the OT - including Adam, the flood, Abraham stories, Moses stories and so on with some mixed in Babylonian astronomy for good measure.

    You know, there's pyramids all over the place - Sumeria, (Iraq), Egypt, Mexico, South America, yes - even England, (all be it much much smaller). This does not imply that the need for triangles is inherent in all of us.

    See you're just not reading. I haven't dismissed anything. What I'm asking is that when someone comes up with an idea or proposal, that some evidence and proof be established before advertising it as reality. They might not have had that burden 5,000 years ago, but they bloody well do now.

    An unworthy sentiment, and again I feel you didn't quite grasp the concept of what I wrote. However...

    This isn't really accurate. England is actually higher up there than quite a few, (especially European), countries - 71.6% of whom consider themselves christian, (and according to a catholic site it's 77%). I forget who but a member here did provide a nice graph a while back. If he reads this and feels like adding it it would be appreciated.

    In the meantime you could also check:

    http://www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/releases/print.php?Releases/1997/Dec97/chr121097a

    Which has figures concerning sermon attendance. As you can see, England is a lot higher than many countries - which kind of negates the: "I mean the churches in england are all empty".

    I have a 5 year old daughter. Perhaps you'll understand if you have a 5 year old daugher being forced to stand up in class and say: "thank you god for looking after me", or singing jesus holy songs because the teacher says so, or coming home and telling me god will save her if she's a good girl.

    She's 5 years old, it's her rights I am concerned about and my rights to raise my daughter free from the abuse I consider such action to be. If I want my daughter bowing, praying and singing to the clouds I will take her to church.
     
  22. ellion Magician & Exorcist (93) Registered Senior Member

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    i cant help wondering why snake lord is so concerned about fairies and sky daddies. could this be some kind of unresolved childhood complex?
     
  23. ellion Magician & Exorcist (93) Registered Senior Member

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    i think you missed the point again, but Light Travelling has made my argument for me. i couldnt have done it better.


    no, as above, and below.

    yes, this is what i was saying.
     

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