Operation "..............."

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Soulcry, Apr 30, 2003.

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  1. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    That seems like nonsense when you read the report. In no way were they "careful" to avoid civilian collateral. This was deliberate collective punishment. I'm on Israel's side, for the most part. How do you fight a war nicely? Hamas is no better and in many cases worse.
     
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  3. Axes Registered Senior Member

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    I didn't call Israel 'carefull', I said it was more carefull than its western counterparts in Iraq and Afghanistan. The problem with the report is that, not only was it created by the UNHRC, a blatently anti-Israeli organization supervised by a large Muslim block, but that same UNHRC set the mandate and parameters for the commision. In addition, the commision's investigation was held in Gaza, where the 'crime scene' was controlled by Hamas, who allowed or prevented specific people from being interviewed to the commision. Lastly, the commision did not take into account the Israeli side of the story, which allso included intelligence, photographs, witness accounts, and a whole lot of evidence. Criticise Israel all you want regarding cast lead, but I wouldnt base it on that report.

    And, by the way, the war against Hamas, despite the huge amount of ordenence used by Israel, created far less civilian casualties than any modern Urban war since WWII. It definately says something, doesnt it..
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2009
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  5. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Israel refused to cooperate with the report, which was extensive. It's obvious they were not only not careful, but deliberately targeted civilians and civilian infrastructure that had no military purpose, such as a waste treatment plant and an egg farm. I'm not comparing it to anything else.
     
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  7. Axes Registered Senior Member

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    Just as the US would have refused to cooperate with a report instigated by North Korea, so as not to give a farce more credibility. Yet, under the table, Israel sent the commision numerous files, including 400 pages of information and evidence drafted by the foreign office, the Israeli High Courts ruling on the Gaza conflict during the conflict, and the IDF's internal investigation. None were used in the report, only Palestinian info. Thus, a one sided report can seem very informative and true when presented in a well written manner. The point still stands that this report received its mandate from a blatently anti-Israeli organization, it refused to listen to the Israeli side of the story, and its investigations in Gaza were compromised by Hamas's controll of the 'crime scene', witnesses, and areas in which they investigated.



    If that is the case, then there hasnt been an urban battle in history that was much different. What you fail to understand is that war is organized chaos, and even if you accidentally hit the wrong target 1% of the time, then there will be enough damage to damn you to hell in a report, if that report is biased enough. The IDF can hit 99% of its military targets, but considering the fact that it initiated thousands of strikes, then dozens of incidents of totally non-military installations attacked is not only understandible, its impossible to think of an alternative without such a result. Allso, do not equate between Hamas and the IDF, because if the IDF is as immoral than Hamas, then the US is worse than the Taliban.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2009
  8. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    They never refused to listen to Israel's side of the story, Israel refused to cooperate. They did tell the other side of the conflict, to the extent that they could. They sited specific incidences of Hamas violence and torture. I do not accept that the UN is an inherently anti-Israeli institution. You have obviously not read the report. They systematically targeted food production with repeated and precise strikes. This wasn't complete chaos, it was planned. Let's at least deal with reality here.
     
  9. Bells Staff Member

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    Israel is being singled out because of the deliberate manner in which they targetted civilians and civilian areas, as well as civilian infrastructure.

    Does not make what Israel did and what Hamas did any more acceptable. Your argument is basically along the line of 'well if they did it, I can do it too'. That is not acceptable.

    You also need to realise that during the incursion into Gaza, Israel also banned all media from entering or reporting on the war from Gaza. They also prevented aid workers from entering and investigating reports of war crimes during the incursion.
     
  10. Axes Registered Senior Member

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    You are mixing two things up. Israel refused to officially cooperate with the commision, since it was sent by the UNHRC and was allready biased. But under the table, Israel sent it numerous reports (Israeli high court rulings, evidence, aerial photo's, testimonies), none of which were used by the commision.



    Based only on partiall information, only from one side, and that information was allready tainted by Hamas's controll of the scene and access to
    witnesses.





    I did read the report, and as I said before, a well written biased report can seem very true, but just because it sounds proffesional, doesnt mean it reports the truth. By the way, I wasnt speaking of the UN, but rather the UNHRC, the body which sent the commision and set its onvestigative parameters and mandate. Allso, even Ban Kai Moon and Kofi Annan severely criticised the UNHRC for its anti-Israeli bias.




    Do you know what went on in the areas attacked by the IDF? Naturally not, and neither does the commision, since Hamas had 6 months to clear out any evidence of using civilian targets as military installations. On the other hand, there is enough evidence of Hamas's use of schools, hospitals, mosqs, and even zoo's as launching pads.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2009
  11. Axes Registered Senior Member

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    Israel is being singled out due to the large Muslim block in the UNHRC, which uses the council both to bash Israel (85% of their resolutions dealt with it), and to veto sanctions and investigations dealing with some of the worst human rights violators on earth... who sit in the council.




    That's not my argument. My argument is that even the most moral armies in the world, in an urban environment, tend to hit alot of civilian infastructure because basically it is impossible to prevent it. Thus, it is hypocritical that something taken as a given for every country in the world, causes outrage when Israel tries to protect itself.





    Yes, Im sure you would have loved for us to allow reporters and civilians to run along infront our front lines inside a battlefield, where many would probably have been killed and Israel would have been blamed. As it happens, every army engaging in offensive warfare restricts access to the battle-zone while fighting. It was evident in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.. The only instance where civilians or reporters are allowed in, is to accompany specifically prepared combat units.
     
  12. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    I should point out these claims have yet to be proven, at this stage they're still charges waiting to be laid at the UN. Let's not get so trigger happy 'til all the facts are laid out and the presumedly innocent are proven guilty.

    That doesn't address the issue being raised. I don't see many people saying the level of suffering in Gaza is acceptable. The point is how does the US escape war crimes trials for a crime of 10X the magnitude in Fallujah alone? How does Pakistan escape war crimes trials for the massacre of its own civilians in the Swat valley and the displacement of a million? What about Sri Lanka, fighting a people who sought independence and autonomy rather than to drive the Sinhalese out? I could go on and on. Why is Israel the first to be singled out when half the world is guilty of even more vicious activities? There's no excuse for a rational, mature person to ignore and dismiss these very legitimate questions. Why are they the only country in the world facing this level of international scrutiny and pending charges?
     
  13. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    When Hamas so much as shots a pistol from a "civilian" area at the Israelis, it becomes legally under practically every law of warfare in existance, a "military" area.

    So long as there is a smidgen of evidence that Hamas used a civilian area for ANY military purposes, Israel has every legal right to fire back with whatever amount of ordnance as they please.
     
  14. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    Because the palestinians are sore losers, and would shoot themselves just to make Israel look guilty.

    Personally, I think every country bashing Israel is disgusting, not cause its bashing Israel, but because Its bashing Israel while choosing nott o help the Palestinians. If the Arabs truly considered the Palestinians their brtohers, theyd attack Israel asap, send troops to Palestine, evacuate the civilians. Etc, but instead, they are throwing insults at a country immune to them.
     
  15. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Mod Note: This is a thread OP redeemed from the cesspool
     
  16. John99 Banned Banned

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    hype, what the hell is going on here?
     
  17. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Just play along and nobody gets hurt.

    modnote: I made a merging error. I'm going to fix it, as soon as I learn how (sorry).
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2009
  18. John99 Banned Banned

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    you cesspooled the administrators thread and now you are moving the posts wherever you feel like?
     
  19. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Last edited: Sep 21, 2009
  20. John99 Banned Banned

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    but why?
     
  21. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Things are going wrong because we're always looking for an exemplary culprit, instead of becoming a caring community. In the USA I mean (returning to topic).
     
  22. John99 Banned Banned

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    what was wrong with that thread that you cesspooled and then moved only the op?

    you are forum doctoring. but for what purpose?

    Modnote:

    I'll discuss it with you, but not exactly here. You can start a new thread in Site Feedback, or (better yet) use an appropriate pre-existent thread there in Site Feedback. See you there- I'll delete (but still respond to) any further posts here (in this thread) from you, about any errors or recklessness on my part. All I know how to do at this point is make a merge expire in less than an hour. That's when I'm hoping to fix the merge error. As for JamesR's thread, no harm no foul, no error- His thread was fair moderator game, and you can still read, comment, revise, extend, on his OP or any elements of the cesspooled thread right here (just scroll compliantly up to Post # 84) where I think it fits in fine. If you find the insertion distracting, then I am sorry. Please ignore it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2009
  23. John99 Banned Banned

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    But the OP was the whole problem. It was not accurate and we pointed out to that.
     
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