Operation "..............."

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Soulcry, Apr 30, 2003.

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  1. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    You have that exactly right. Clinton et al, is happy to lambaste all and sundry for human rights abuses, but Israel, a major offender, receives little or no condemnation. That fits nicely with the "astonishing hypocrisy" paradigm.
     
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  3. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    Israel could well be right about the investigative team having a bias, if it's true that members of this team have issued condemnations of Israel in the past. If you've gotten politically involved in related issues and chosen sides in the past, you're not an objective observer, period, even if your points are entirely truthful. It's disappointing the UN couldn't have gone out of its way to appease Israel's concerns just to eliminate the question of neutrality, and that will probably undermine the report's credibility in the long run. On the other hand, Israel didn't help itself by refusing to cooperate, they could have at least insisted on having their own observers join the committee to monitor its work and bring up their own charges. The blanket denials they're throwing out right now are stupid, but Netanyahu announced he was going to thoroughly study the report before beginning his rebuttal, so we'll see what happens.

    Frankly, what the UN needs to do is come up with a scheme that will punish whoever initiates the next round of violence, whether it's Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, some Syrian rebels, whatever. The UN should make it clear violence will not be allowed as a tool for any side to make any political gains, this includes Palestinians seeking to change facts on the ground by fighting, and settlers seeking to expand their existing territories. I don't think this will happen. I think the UN will effectively rule that in the future, Israel will be restricted to extremely limited means of defending itself, and Hamas will be taking advantage. Israel will ignore UN restrictions in order to effectively protect its citizens and restore the sort of calm that's been seen for the last several months, they will get massively sanctioned for it, and Hamas will continue to take full advantage, knowing the international community won't impose anything on it without its full consent, as all the voluntary trade sanctions have already been imposed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2009
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  5. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    I have various issues, both theoretical and practical, with the ICC.

    If the question is simply whether war criminals should face some kind of justice, then sure.

    The question of who, if anyone, should enforce that, is a much thornier one.

    Any number of things, possibly. It could end up having as much to do with general US objections to the ICC as anything else. Right now there isn't even a general resolution to refer this to the UNSC, let alone a Security Council resolution to be vetoed. Until there is such a thing, it's fairly idle to speculate about the implications of a veto.

    Now how about this:

    Has any sitting government ever not sought to discredit UN reports critical of them?

    What, then, does the predictability of such an outcome (the stated topic of this thread) bear on?
     
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  7. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    You raise some very valid points Cpt. I think any government will have concerns of bias, and of course this can be used to deflect the real issue. The Goldstone Commission was specifically unbiased in that he has an impeccable track record and further, he pro actively asked to include investigating HAMAS as well. There is no reason this attention to neutrality cannot be maintained in going forward.

    I think anyone can see that after all this time, violence is not the answer to the Israel/Palestinian issue. A war crimes trail/commission will publicly bring ALL guilty parties to the table, and could actually be used as an inroad for initiating meaningful talks between the two. Of course the Palestinians would have to get their act together and find a unified voice.
     
  8. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    Can you expand?
    Yes, agreed.
    Is that not what the ICC was set up to do? Apply the law, impartially? Should those, already convicted and incarcerated by the ICC then be released? :m:
    OK.
    There are UN reports that are critical, and there are UN reports of crimes against humanity. Surely these should be taken seriously? Furthermore, few sitting governments are accused of war crimes.
    The predictability bears on the Israeli response to the report. Instant attempts to discredit the report via accusations of bigotry, bias and Antisemitism. How about some moral outrage that, as happened to themselves, another people may have suffered, and the will to investigate?
     
  9. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Last edited: Sep 17, 2009
  10. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    I don't really want to go off on a tangent about the ICC at this point, given that we're months away from even knowing whether there's any chance of ICC involvement.

    There are no such people.

    Not what I asked. Can you give an example of a sitting government not seeking to discredit a UN report - war crimes or otherwise - critical of their country?

    Unless you can provide some examples of other states behaving differently in similar situations, this doesn't tell us anything about Israel in particular.
     
  11. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    From the report:

    I don't know about that. If they were recruited by Hamas from Palestinian armed groups, and are themselves armed, they are arguably legitimate targets. If some individuals are members of militias, that indicates to me there is a culture of militancy present. We can't expect Israel to sort out the "good ones" if there even were any. They made up a sixth of the total casualties.

     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2009
  12. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Yes they are set up as a court and can grant warrants but who will enforce it? In other words if this went to court and there were people who are issued warrants and the Israeli government ignores it there is little the ICC can do.

    Here is a good example:

    The International Criminal Court has issued an arrest warrant for Sudan's president on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity in Darfur.

    Speaking on Tuesday ahead of the announcement, Mr Bashir said the Hague tribunal could "eat" the arrest warrant.
    He said it would "not be worth the ink it is written on" and then danced for thousands of cheering supporters who burned an effigy of the ICC chief prosecutor.

    Sudan expert Alex de Waal told the BBC the indictment is "pretty toothless" as the ICC does not have a police force.

    The war crimes court has already issued two arrest warrants - in 2007 - for Sudanese Humanitarian Affairs Minister Ahmed Haroun and the Janjaweed militia leader Ali Abdul Rahman.

    Sudan has refused to hand them over.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7923102.stm
     
  13. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    The UN needs to send it's own troops in there and occupy a buffer zone between these two parties.
     
  14. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    They suck when it comes to peacekeeping.
     
  15. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Wow, this report is long, but no one looks good. I'll have to print it out to read.
     
  16. mike47 Banned Banned

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    The UN and the security council are a a real joke and they need vital reforms .
     
  17. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, I'm not saying Israel should have the right to lock down its borders and that's the end of the story. I think the basic principle should be that whoever makes a claim against another, there is only one place to settle it, and that's in a clear and transparent court of international law, where all evidence, facts, references etc. can be laid down and debated properly. No nation should be forced to cede land or give up a claim to land on the grounds that they will face violence if they refuse. With the way Israel and the Palestinians have been boxed by the rest of the world into this tiny little plot of trash, while everyone else lives on vast, resourceful, safe and secure lands that were themselves mostly stolen from other peoples, I personally feel the world owes both parties some assurance of security and relief, and the guarantee that when the dust settles, we will all chip in to make sure both sides have abundant and sovereign territories in which to settle their people.

    With Israel, the world is going needlessly far in scaring them shitless that they will soon have no home and will be living as an unwanted minority scattered in other peoples' lands, much like it was before the Holocaust and throughout the middle ages. If the countries that want to question Israel's basic right of existence were to offer up territory in exchange, on which the jews can build a sovereign state to their own liking just like every other sovereign nation, it wouldn't solve the problem but it would make things 100 times easier, and if I were Israeli I'd at least be interested in what's being offered. With Hamas, I don't think particularly highly of them, but I do think they've been showing enough restraint and maturity that it's high time the world starts seriously pressing for the opening of Gaza's borders. If Hamas begins firing rockets again, what will Israel take away this time? Allowing basic humanitarian goods into Gaza won't stop the IDF from pounding the place whenever it chooses anyhow. The current sanctions are a clear act of collective punishment, which doesn't do Israel any favours in the long term, and this callous behaviour needs to be stopped.

    I haven't spent much time researching the various statements and quotes attributed to Goldstone's team. If Israel's claims are true that some of them have demonstrated substantial bias in the past, it's a serious allegation and it needs to be taken into account when considering the committee's work and who did what. That having been said, I haven't personally seen any reasons to question Mr. Goldstone's own past performances, although obviously it doesn't mean he's spotless, and his being jewish doesn't in itself guarantee neutrality towards Israel when he levels his charges. What will matter most is whether Israel takes this opportunity seriously and addresses the actual issues in the report, cooperates with the UN in future investigations, and stops with the outdated blanket denials and smear tactics which people once blindly accepted 30 years ago. I'm sure there are many Israeli soldiers and officers whose motives go well beyond the mere protection of their own people, and these folks need to be held accountable both for Israel's sake and for the sake of peace.

    Still cynical in the end that this whole episode will play into the hands of Hamas and will possibly even encourage further acts of violence, but I also realize that Israel can't be given a carte blanche indefinitely, or else they'll simply reduce themselves to the same sorts of vicious behaviours.
     
  18. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    They already have apparently.
     
  19. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    I have no doubt that some of them have already, my only questions are on what scale are these behaviours being practised, to what extent do the higher echelons of Israel's government know about it, tolerate it and approve of it, and to what extent do the Israeli government and the people who elected it have control over these activities? The issue of self-defense is a touchy one, I get pretty emotional about it myself at times, but even if somehow it could be shown that 99% of Israel's actions were in the legitimate interest of self-defense, that wouldn't give any excuse to the 1% (or likely much, much more) who consider the Palestinians little more than animals that deserve a good beating.
     
  20. CheskiChips Banned Banned

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    That's not what Bill Clinton thinks.
     
  21. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    After Lebanon, they seemed to have officially adopted the strategy of attacking the entire area where terrorist attacks are coming from.
     
  22. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    Come to think of it though, I do have to wonder when countries like Russia and America get their day in court. If Israel gets a whole investigation for killing 1000 people in a war where Israeli soil was under direct attack, what happens in a place like Iraq where more than a million have died, hundreds of thousands at American hands (if not more), the whole war was based on a completely fake premise and there was no physical threat to America or its allies? I know it's convenient to pick on little countries like Israel, but justice ain't justice unless the same rules apply to everyone in all parts of the world, as hard as that may be.
     
  23. Axes Registered Senior Member

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    I disagree. With all the anti-Israeli bluster aside, Israel has been far less harsh and far more carefull to avoid civilian collateral than its western counterparts in Iraq and Afghanistan. Hell, in Fallujah, a town 10 times smaller then Gaza, the US killed 10 times more civilians in a few weeks. Yet somehow, as usual, Israel is still being singled out.
     
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