Opera

Discussion in 'Computer Science & Culture' started by sevenblu, Jun 25, 2004.

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  1. Alpha «Visitor» Registered Senior Member

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    Why do I even bother? You have already made up your mind. Without standards the Internet wouldn't exist. The Internet was built on standards, and without them computers wouldn't be able to communicate with each other, web browsers wouldn't be possible- sorry, other web browsers wouldn't be possible. There'd only be Internet Exploder, and Microsoft would own the web, and everyone would have to conform to whatever they chose to implement.
    Need we run through a comparison again? IE: tons of security holes, no new features in years.
    Moz: Very few security holes, tons of new features and constantly expanding.
    Not true. They will be subject to the same pressures as IE, but it is obvious Mozilla & Firefox do a much better than Microsoft, and can handle those pressures.

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    You can't be serious. IE gets hijacked left right and center, installs spyware and adware without consent, is vulnerable to sooo many things that enable webdesigners to do things they shouldn't, like installing those things in the first place. Firefox and mozilla are immune to browser hijacking. IE and windows in general are where the security problems are. I believe I've already backed that up. Now you are just spouting your opinion without basis. I bet have a financial interest in MS's software.
    Not perfectly safe, but one hell of a lot safer.
    You fuckwit, there'd be no internet without standards. Do you even understand the concept?
    Well, Opera sales have tripled in light of recent browser-related events, so obviously some people. And what does that say, when people are willing to pay for another browser rather than use IE?
    Then you are not catering to the general public, and should not act like it. Stop trying to tell people IE is better for average Joe. Average Joe is going to have their PC bogged down with adware and browser hijackers, etc., likely within a day of using IE.
    Security through obscurity has proven to be a flawed methodology, and if you aren't willing to open your code for peer review, I'd never have you as a customer. The best forms of security are secure even with an attacker has access to the code, because it just doesn't change the fact that it's secure.

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    :bugeye:
    Far from it. IE is a steaming pile of... why do I bother?
    Mozilla is designed to be part of the Mozilla suite and normally comes with Thunderbird for email, IIRC. You can get it by itself though. Firefox is based on Mozilla but is slimmed down to make it the bare essentials. You then install extensions to customize it how you want. That way you only have the functionality you need/want.
    And if there's some functionality not available you want, you can always write a plugin or give the idea to someone who will.
     
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  3. Blindman Valued Senior Member

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    To alpha and all anti MS freaks.
    You don't have a clue do you. Well live on in your happy little world. Maybe one day you'll get a job and find out that a 1% advantage can make or break your employer. But with your insular attitude you will always be on the outside. Business is about cheaper and better. I love the fact that I can undercut my competitors by as much as 50%. Most of the advantage I have is due to the incompetent eduction that is cultivated by a uni subculture that hates everything Microsoft and people like you make my job even easier.
    I'm competing against a market dominated by Unix based companies who due to their multi platform open source attitude cant keep up with hardware advances (hardware developers pride them selves in the fact that they go outside the STANDARDS). 90% of our product is Microsoft's work. I hold the customer as king and will bend to keep them happy. I have a host of awards, and bank account bulging beyond even my expectations. Mostly due to the fact that I use the best browser available IE.

    So rabbit on about how much you hate MS because for every programmer or analyst you convert I gain a advantage. IE, Dot Net, DirectX, winXP, C#, IIS give me the power to walk all over my competitors.

    Im trying to help. We need laws to stop hackers, not home users but the organized criminals that are hijacking our CPU's and bandwidth. Changing down to lesser tech is not the solution. Report every spyware, complain complain and maybe we can create an avenue free of organized crime for they are the ones that make the problem not MS.
     
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  5. Alpha «Visitor» Registered Senior Member

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    Because I contradict you I'm an anti-MS freak? Don't label me, please and thank you.
    Are you asking? Didn't think so.
    What makes you think I don't have a job?
    You seem to be the one with the insular attitude. I've quoted sources and examples, while you've offered nothing but unsupported opinion.
    Doesn't get cheaper than free, and Firefox and other browsers are clearly better than IE in virtually every way.
    You may feel it's the best for your business, but that's because it does things the other browsers don't, like VBScript (there's an activex plugin for Firefox). But those same things are making it even less secure. The functionality may aid your business, but it has the risk of hurting it just as much or more if you get owned.
    I didn't say I hate Microsoft.
    "Rabbit on"?

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    Other browsers can do most of the things IE can do, and better where standards are concerned. Firefox has an ActiveX plugin. There's Mono, which is an open source equivalent to Dot Net. I'll give you DirectX, but WinXP?

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    And IIS is another piece of swiss cheese.
    Well, y'know, whenever they try to pass laws regarding hacking, they tend to infringe on everyone's rights, not just would-be hackers. And there's a better way to stop hackers: make your software secure. Wow, what a concept.
    Right.

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    I think MS is a major source of the problem, and you'd be hard pressed to support an argument to the contrary.
     
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  7. Blindman Valued Senior Member

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    I did start with a quote for quote rebuttal but then thought better.

    Oh so MS are the criminals actively stealing bandwidth and CPU time. Please.

    Mono has a long way to go before I would invest any time in it. Did you know that in about3-4 years DotNet will no longer be supported by MS. We are already investing time to the next generation operating systems which is promising to take advantage of all that great new hardware. Just like open source to be a few years behind. Oh well all the best im off to do some surfing with my own home variant of IE, oh it just took me a weekend to write and guess what, im in control.
     
  8. Alpha «Visitor» Registered Senior Member

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    Hardly, but their sloppy coding is responsible for enabling all the adware, popups and browser hijackers that annoy so many people, and the security holes that leave the system wide open for any hacker or wannabe hacker.
    "We"? I thought you weren't working for Microsoft? Hm. As I suspected you have a financial interest at least.
    Not when it comes to scurity, and releasing patches. Then it's the other way around.
     
  9. Firefly Registered Senior Member

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    What are the criticisms against open source anyway??
     
  10. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    from Slashdot.org ->
    http://slashdot.org/articles/04/07/13/1531240.shtml?tid=113&tid=126&tid=172&tid=95
     
  11. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

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    Pirates beware. The enemy is among us.
     
  12. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    Last edited: Jul 13, 2004
  13. shoffsta Geek Registered Senior Member

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    Don't think I have heard of anybody here except for a litterally "blind" man who seems to think IE is better than mozilla. Actually the first time I've heard that said...
    No, but really...You must have something to do with "Midget-$quashy"
    ... I'm not trying to insult you; you can have you're own opinion and keep it, but I just think you're wrong...
     
  14. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

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    I can understand it being better in an infrastructure sort of way as blindman has been saying. It has more capabilities. Ala activex and so on. But, to the common user it is a monstrosity that is full of flaws and holes. It has made the net full of sites that cater to the nonstandards compliency of it's structure. Which make things more difficult for any other browser that plays by the rules. MS has also been shown to have a tendency to use less than savory tactics against it's competitors. Wanna bet if all other browsers had been successfully destroyed by MS that we'd have to pay big bucks for the honor of using their precious browser?
     
  15. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    Guys, I know Blindman has said he supports IE and the majority here tend to disagree about the original statement of whats the better browser, but getting almost to fisty cuffs isn't altering anyones attitude if their minds are made up.

    I say this in the hope that you'll be able to refrain from getting aggrevative towards each other and just realise that people do use things we detest (afterall compare a road trip to the internet and your going to find someone driving a vehicle you don't like, in a way you don't like. That is just the law of the road.)

    If your making money with it and people aren't complaining Blindman then good for you, however most of those that complain are coming from a background of tinkering. Tinkering to you is money when you have computer illiterate businessmen that will happily call you to fix the problem they created from "tinkering" however the rest of us don't have the cash to be illiterate that way, so we have to fix our own tinkering and most likely complain because of the hassle we have to go through for the learning curve to find the answer for fixing the problem.

    Admittedly the "future" isn't necessarily Microsoft however, although they have gained size over the years I would genuinely guess the lessening of Microsoft sales over the coming years in their OS sales, as the other OS's transpire to do the tasks that need to be done better.

    Linux hardware compatibility is also on the increase, many peripheral companies have started to involve themselve with Linux (Notibly IBM). So to say that such OS's are going to be incompatible is nonsense, especially with Corporate companies trying to keep themselves in the black by covering all the angles of the available market.

    However all of this is very far away from the original topic, which is where this should really all come crunching back. The topic was "Browsers" not a war of OS's or companies, but how we view the internet as a whole.

    I would suggest checking out: http://www.w3.org/ since this is the main site that covers the specifications and suggested standards for formating standards*, perhaps if I get time I'll script up a page that tests your browser to the MAX.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2004
  16. Alpha «Visitor» Registered Senior Member

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    Actually, I'm not so sure it does have any real capabilities other browsers don't have, aside from maybe VBScript (but who uses that anyway?). There is an activex plugin, remember?
    Standards for the web actually, not internet protocols. The RFCs are for that.
    I'd be interested to see your test.

    I'd also like to correct my earlier statement: Microsoft has actually still not patched the bug I mentioned, they simply disabled the affected code. The problem was never really part of the Mozilla/Firefox/Thunderbird apps, as they simply passed the URI on to windows to handle it. Now if windows could handle it properly (read: securely) there'd have been no problem.

    Blindman, what exactly do you need from IE that other browsers can't do? Firefox can do ActiveX (*shudder*), there's Mono as a .NET replacement. What else do you need? DirectX, C# and IIS are not relevant, and are available to Firefox users as well. I don't see how IE gives you an edge when you can use a more secure browser with more features to do the same stuff.

    Must be the MS perks.

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  17. Firefly Registered Senior Member

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    No-one gonna answer my question?

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  18. Blindman Valued Senior Member

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    My problem with open source is the slow rate at which it evolves. Hardware manufactures that produce the machine on which our app's function are in an all out race to out do each other. Competitive code needs to keep up with this technology, the peer revue cycle of open source is a more complicated system, systems that inhibit the flow of ideas will always fall behind.

    Imaging game coders decided to go open source... How boring
     
  19. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    Not quite sure what you mean here, but 'open source' brought us things such as Counter strike. The most popular game for a long, long time on the internet.

    The modding community thrives on relatively 'open source' and has brought innovation to the gaming industry.
     
  20. Blindman Valued Senior Member

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    Im looking forward to Doom4, Half-Life... Counter strike, don't you have to subscribe to be a lucky open source coder, mmm and who makes the final call, open source my ass. It has a long way to go to give you Doom4/Half-Life Action.. I played the beta Doom4 on a piss ant Gforce4 (WOW)..And buying Half-Life as soon as it hits the store.. Open source can try...
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2004
  21. Kunax Sciforums:Reality not required Registered Senior Member

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    ...removed previous post... can i have some of your drugs blindman
     
  22. Blindman Valued Senior Member

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    Umm Yep..But dont try to walk :bugeye:
     
  23. Blindman Valued Senior Member

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    Any one have a CounterStrike link without "Please log in to FilePlanet to download files. "
     
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