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Discussion in 'Computer Science & Culture' started by sevenblu, Jun 25, 2004.

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  1. Dreamwalker Whatever Valued Senior Member

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    Heh, my IE managed to delete itself. It is simply gone and I never did anything, perhaps it felt it was superior to my system and just commited suicide.
     
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  3. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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  5. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    Avatars correct:

    Internet Explorer is a nightmare for webdesigners since it's no longer compatible with certain HTML specifications.

    Internet Explorer doesn't place forms in tables correctly, it generates extra spaces below the table content so it means you can not skin a site to have seemless images aligning because Internet Explorer throws all the tables out of alignment making the site look a mess.

    Internet Explorer no longer allows you to parse access to .htaccess password folders by URL: for instance http://username:password@www.website.test/folder/ will not grant you access to that folder if everything was correct, in fact it doesn't tell you that it's not even attempting to resolve it (this is due to a recent update that disabled it) For those of you that don't know, this means that creating input boxes on a page for each and then using a script to enter them into that URL format no longer works. The only work around is to generate a normal Anchor link to the folder i.e. http://www.website.test/folder/


    Internet Explorer also introduced changes in the usage of Javascript such as the use of close(), which originally didn't generate a "do you want to close" popup, this meant there was no point placing close buttons on a page since you ended up having to seek to close twice.

    Internet Explorer allows execution of VBScript and JScript (Microsofts own version of Javascript) both have the capacity to make your browser write files to your system and execute them. You can turn these options off in the browser Options but most people don't bother unless they get stung a few times.

    Internet Explorer usually ends up having exploits that can cause overflows or attackers to penetrate right into the OS, so using a different browser lowers that problem.

    When looking at Internet Explorer next to the third party browsers it's a right bloater in comparison (most of the other browsers are under 5mb, but downloading IE is massive when you start adding up what the standard install includes.

    Currently the only reason why Internet Explorer seems to be compatible for some is that most of the internet viewers originally were using Internet Explorer (in fact my site reports showed that about 95% were running an IE build, however recently the trend is changing Firefox is now starting to take some of that audience and even a few Mozilla/Opera users)

    Any more for an IE bashing? (Sorry their Blindman, continue to use it if you see fit, I'll just have to start rigging up redirections for the die hard IE fans)
     
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  7. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    you should clone that function, make a virii out of it and set loose on the net

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    :m:
     
  8. Alpha «Visitor» Registered Senior Member

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    IE is by far the least advanced browser. Not only has it not had a new feature in years, but it is not standards compliant; it's broken. You call that CSS2 support?
    No, if you use IE you are asking for trouble. As long as IE is integrated into windows, it will never be secure. They have spent years trying to fix all the holes in IE, and there's still tons. Look at the recent holes, it's something they've known about for a long time, but never fixed. As soon as the mozilla programmers found out about it, they patched their browsers with lightning speed compared to MS's snail pace. Which, by the way, they wouldn't have had to do if MS wasn't so sloppy.
    Wow, you're really towing the tag line.
    Have you ever actually tried a gecko based browser?
    Standards compliance is a GOOD thing. The fact that MS chose to go their own way and break the standards shows they don't give a shit about standards or the web community. They just want people to use IE, and make money. The only reason they got away with it is because they have so many IE users because that's what's on their system by default and it's inegrated into the system. Average joe and nancy has no clue there's anything other than IE, or how badly it sucks.
    What are you talking about? Firefox's features blow IE out of the water, along with several other browsers, like Mozilla & Opera.

    IE is a giganimous security hole. There are currently at least 24 known unpatched security vulnerabilities in Internet Explorer. Barely a day goes by there aren't new vulnerabilities released. Then there's all the spyware, adware, browser hijackers, etc., that proliferate because of IE.
    Firefox is immune to browser hijacking, and you're extremely unlikely to get any spyware or adware with firefox.
    Have a look here. This site alone lists 16 vulnerabilities for 2002, 24 for 2003, and already 14 for 2004. Looks to me like IE is actually getting less secure, even after all the patches. Have a look at the following Google search:
    - http://www.google.com/search?num=50...inurl:security site:microsoft.com&btnG=Search
    ~1,620 security bulletins for IE from MS?!
    The latest vulnerabilities have made it so insecure that even the US-CERT has issued an advisory saying Beware IE, recommending people stop using IE and switch to another browser like Mozilla or Firefox:
    - http://www.us-cert.gov/cas/techalerts/TA04-184A.html

    Man, there's a reason it's commonly known as Internet Exploder!

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    BTW, Avatar, it's viruses, not virii.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2004
  9. Blindman Valued Senior Member

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    I dont work for MS i work for my clients. They use my products and pay me well for privilege. The only problem I have with IE is a lack of standardization with the MAC version of IE. But then I provide a Compliant version for some of my web apps, but only on the more general purpose apps. Usually the customers move to IE when the are shown what it can do. Ive even converted a few MAC users back to PC's just to use our products.

    Having a message "IE6 required" has not hurt my business.
     
  10. Dreamwalker Whatever Valued Senior Member

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    Damn, I would do it if I could, but it looks like IE just did it on its own and I have no idea when or how, one day it was there, the other it was gone. Just too bad

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  11. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    back here it is commonly called Internet Suxplorer

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    /IE bashing
     
  12. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    besides, even if we throw down all the security and code issues, there's still one more thing -> it just looks dull

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  13. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    The computer administrator send an email to everyone not so long ago advising not to use IE. That was because of the security leaks.
     
  14. Blindman Valued Senior Member

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    Why do I even bother. You people have made up your own mind and so be it. Standards are shit. They are slow to keep up and only help keep computers technologies back. I don't love MS. But I love change. It gives me power, power to impress, power to make money (any when you have the power..Blah Blah bang bang) The standards are a real limit and frankly they just don't provide me with what I want. MS has gone some of the way, and thank god for their foresight.

    Security holes exist in every browser offering any sort of functionality. Give me a JSCRIPT and an uneducated user and I drop their system into a pile poo on every browser I have ever tried. Especial now with the growing use of Static IP's for home users. What a joke.

    Its this type of attitude that is holding computing back. (sorry Stryder) Should I just tell all my users to go back to expensive client apps. Should I get a distributer and a production house, pay for CD's and all that extra crap. Get real.

    Well you die hards can do what ever you want. I hope you realize that if the other browser becomes popular they too will be subject to the same issues that effect IE. No program is bug free.

    Heres a tip. Stop going to illegal sites, stop ripping off software, music, porn. Stop installing malicious P2P's and hacked software. This is where the security problem lie.

    Dare I use an analogy. If I hand out free guns should I be blamed for the carnage that is produced.

    If you think your safe using moz your deluding your self. But of course you must fit into your peer group. Only dags use IE... Ho Ho Ho...
     
  15. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    I've been doing it for years and never had a virus/trojan/whatever do any harm.
    Firewalling + antivirus software + a good browser = flawless

    besides -> even if I got braindamaged and decided to use IE -> Linux.
    One OS (Windows/IE) global standart won't do any good.
     
  16. Blindman Valued Senior Member

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    Yes global standards is the problem. I just wish someone else would dare to step past the standard. MS is not going to continue its defiances and its time for a new player to step in. The only problem is there is no money in it. Who would pay money for a browser...
     
  17. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    Actually Blindman the security holes I was refering to aren't from sharenetworks and hacked software, usually it's Spam mail and of course outlooks intergration with Messenger and Internet explorer that cause the problems.

    Ever pulled one of those viruses apart to see how it ticks, most of the time the coding is shoddy, at it's very foundations it's usually written with VBScript and usually works on the basis of the browser or Outlook executing it.

    Most of the time the e-mails tend to find there way through backbone networks that belong to Microsoft or AOL (seems originally they were too open to relays)

    Then there is the Adverts that appear on sites that can be malformed to use code execution, which is why it's advisable to use ad-blockers. Those adverts are found on legitimate sites, and the browser hijacks can occur when people park their domains at particular malicious search engine sites to make money (and kill a few Microsoft supporters in the process).

    Some of us actually do have to kick around the illegal sites for research purposes (For instance, someone that believes that should be a hacker because it's cool should realise that hacking for kicks is illegal, if however you are using knowledge of exploitation to test and debug your own systems and network to strengthen your own security it isn't. In fact you would be a poor systems administrator if you didn't do so.)

    I'm not say Blindman that you should get all your clients to go back to expensive client applications, however suggesting that using software from Microsoft is cheaper than Open Source isn't exactly making money. (Supporting Open Source through business actually increases it's stability and generally makes it more user friendly if of course you point out what it needs to the development teams)

    Lastly, I don't think anyones calling you names over IE Blindman, I think they basically see all the problems that have been left unaddressed from the angles that they are use to. You should know btw that every script kiddie on the planet has it in for Microsoft in one way or another, and this is where a majority of the exploits come from.

    I believe that in business if you are selling something your suppose to give a truthful appraisal of what you are selling, and not saying to your clients that every kid on the planet with a text editor is going to want to take a jab at any online Microsoft product is like leaving out that you have a bad case of termites in a woooden house sale.

    [Browsers should be free, however the content they provide viewing to is selling things. everytime you see a Client browser in the logs of a website, that could potentially be a percentage of funds going to a company etc]
     
  18. Blindman Valued Senior Member

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    I don't use outlook for obvious reasons.. I know about virus writing.. You don't spend 20 years coding without giving it a try.

    Thats what my home machine is for. I say bring it on.

    Open source is great for general public apps. But this is not my client base. I create very specific apps. Mines, Building, security apps. But I must admit these are intranet apps more then Internet. But without IE i could not provide the functionality required. There is a building in Europe that is completely controlled via our web based app. We are very strict with the firewalls, we know the danger. You cant go for a shit without the system knowing about it. And god if a half decent hacker could get in it would be a nightmare. Every door is controlled, you cant turn on a light without a client server connection . But this has not been a problem IIS has been very good to us. (apart from a bad install that locked the entire building and cost us a lot)

    Open source is scary. Everyone can see every part of your system. It is not applicable to the types of apps we create.

    If we live in a happy happy joy joy world IE is perfection. I have created several public access sites that requirer IE and if you jumped over the moon it hard to stay on the ground.
    I would happily pay. We do already for MS and its cheap very cheap.

    I just hate it when people say IE is crap without knowing about the power it has over every other browser out there. I still believe that Bill is an altruistic power that has done more good then bad. It could be far far worse. Think about it.
     
  19. shoffsta Geek Registered Senior Member

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    "Standards are shit." -Blindman
    really? you like having your browser not being able to read other html pages, and other browsers not being able to read pages you can read?
    I never use IE, except when I have to. I did some benchmarking on my highschools computers, and found that mozzilla was faster by a multiple of times.
     
  20. Firefly Registered Senior Member

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    I thought Mozilla and Ff were the same??
     
  21. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    you could say that Firefox is a lightweight version of Mozilla
     
  22. Firefly Registered Senior Member

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    Oh, I see. Cool. Do you guys who use Ff or Mozilla also use Thunderbird?
     
  23. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    duno about others, but I use Firebird for browsing and Thunderbird for mail.
     
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