Open note for Moderators

Discussion in 'SF Open Government' started by Neverfly, Jun 1, 2012.

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  1. Emil Valued Senior Member

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    So the meaning is something like this:

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  3. Bells Staff Member

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    Neverfly, you advised you were leaving the forum for good and then disappeared for a while. And then you returned, out of the blue made that comment, aimed at me, in a thread that had nothing to do with me or any of the other moderators.

    So perhaps you can explain to me and my colleagues, who also saw it as a threat, how you could have meant you were apparently going to see me around the forums you were supposedly leaving permanently? Remember? You were going to leave this site permanently, you had declared it in this thread and the other thread. And then that was your parting shot to me. So in a thread where you barged into it and discussed how this was "shitforum", abused people left right and center, after having declared you weren't going to return here again, you then posted that. And we are supposed to assume you meant on the forums you were apparently leaving? I mean you obviously didn't mean that you were leaving permanently when you said you were going to leave permanently...

    You talk of my lies and how I lied to you or distorted what you said. Your words stand Neverfly. You can try and cover it and make it about me and everyone else as much as you want, but that does not make what you said disappear.

    Your comments directed at James, Balerion and myself were, well, appalling. You posted like a sexist and abusive pig.

    There is no other way to describe it. You can try and pretty it up and make it about anything you choose. But those were your words, not mine, not James' not Balerion's. No one but your own. You have not apologised for them. Quite the contrary.

    Guess what Neverfly. You don't get to threaten me or anyone else on this site. You don't get to speak like that to people on this site. Stryder banned you because you crossed the line of what was acceptable on this site. Stryder's comments to you in your ban note was true. You should consider how you post here if you wish to post here. IF you don't like that, then you are free to leave.
     
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  5. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    Part of my issue with you, quite simply is how much and how often you extract what you wish to say about me from my words while ignoring what I have actually said.
    To address this- I vented in that thread the grievances I find valid as an example to the topic of the thread. I made it clear when I did and after I did. That you ignore/extract/deny that now in your question bothers me. It's like asking if I've stopped beating my wife. The question assumes the premise as true. Your leading questions always ASSUME that what you extracted are the case and it's then placed on me to defend myself from your accusatory leading questions.
    Read over all our past arguments and look at How often and How many times, I get frustrated as hell at having to repeat, again and again, my actual words as opposed to the questions that you put forth that twist my actual words. You talk of words standing and anyone can review our arguments and see that what I just described has happened between us every time we've argued- yet they can see I've not had such arguments with other members who do not use leading questions and assumptions of my character to debate things with me. The words, do indeed, stand.

    Bells, your entire confrontation of me- every time- is confounded by your leading questions.
    In the Zimmerman thread and in the Wal-Mart thread- you consistently posed leading questions based on character assumptions about me.

    The other thing you do is you Latch On to things I say and repeatedly try to rub my face in them. If I say, "I'm leaving," you say, "You said you were leaving so why are you here now (Months or years later). Ok, my answer is because I choose to be. Either get over it- or sadly wish I wasn't here. It's up to you.

    Given this- I honestly do not blame myself for my frustrations with you. If you truly wanted to be able to discuss ideas with me on a civil level, you would not approach these discussions with accusations of my character, leading questions and latching on to innocuous things that are frankly, none of your damned business. Whether I'm off feeling saddened by missing a dead one or not is not your concern and it demonstrates a certain sociopathy on your part to attempt to use that against me in your posts in this thread. Talk about posting like a pig- How Dare you. But this is the FIRST I've mentioned of it because I let it slide before.

    It is for this reason that I have zero confidence in your abilities as a moderator. Such behavior is appalling and unheard of from one who is supposed to be an unbiased and fair judge of discussions. However much yuo complain about me, how much higher the standard must be held for you.

    Define "Permanently." Was two years permanent enough? So, I yelled some stuff in anger. Big whoop.
    So, I'm here posting after, in a fed up huff, I declared I was leaving. OMG, someone get the electric chair ready- I deserve torture.

    The answer to your claim that "I made a threat is this": We both know that upon the return of a two year hiatus, I said, "I remember YOU, Bells." Upon leaving the forum in a huff, I said "I'll remember." Now given that and the fact that we are internet opposition, but not real life acquaintances, given that you live in another far away land and that we BOTH have no desire to ever meet, have never tried to discuss making arrangements to meet, that we both never IMPLIED any arrangements to meet, fistfight, duel, what have you- THE ONLY WAY I WILL EVER SEE YA AROUND IS HERE- I am unaware of you on any other science forum-- I don't live there, I'll never be there- I don't want to go there- I want to go to Alaska, not New Zealand or Guam or Australia or where ever it is that you live... Only a very inventive reader can suggest anything other than what the statement implied- I'll Remember Your Tactics should I be gone a long time, come back and find you still here, a year or two or whatever- JUST AS BEFORE. There is no mystery, no conspiracy, no hidden agenda- Your Leading Questions are Based on Absurd Assumptions. The whole crux of my frustration in debating anything with you.
    As do yours and your many, many, many misleading words, assumptions, leading questions and claims, such as "You believe the death penalty should be dealt by security guards" which you justify and rationalize yet is a VERY POOR debate tactic.
    At this exact moment, I have no idea what it was I said that you are addressing. But I CAN say this: You are as much at fault as I am. What you have said stands just as loud and clear. And it Begs The Question: Can you let go; as you insist I cannot let go; and examine your OWN words, check yourself, your tactics and behavior or simply - Avoid Conflicts with me?
    I'd be happier if we did not have such conflict. I hate the way you post, but I do NOT hate you. A post is a moment in time, text words, often fueled by debate but a person is a whole 'nother matter. I do not know you, ica n make only the most vague of assumptions about your character. You're a stranger. Truth told, I've seen you post some very good arguments, I've seen you hold your temper in check and make some very good posts- I'd much prefer to get along with you. Yeah, we cannot be FRIENDS- but I'd Prefer to not be enemies.
    But that becomes impossible when you use leading questions, personal character assumptions and the like in debates. My words always stand, yes- Following Your Own. Replies to you. My anger in some posts stands, As responses to yours. Yet people that debate well, do not have your complaints. You justify your complaints by saying you found my statements or opinions appalling. Fine, you find my opinion about some political issues appalling- how is that making it OK for you to constantly use ad hom leading questions?
    People that do not use leading questions with character assumptions as you do don't get those angry posts- and you know why. And All Those Posts Stand Too - for all to see.

    So, to reverse what you have done to me, I say to you, you said above you were letting it all go. Said we're finished, said you're finished- yet, you cannot let it go. You confront it. And that's ok. After a while, you changed your mind, you wanted to ask the questions that you didn't ask or wanted to get something off your chest after you said you wouldn't. Not a big deal. People change their minds after thinking about something, sometimes.

    Maybe we both need to bury the hatchet. I posted insults to you, JamesR, and Balarionca ... balerus, no... Belarion... whatever. Ok, I posted insults and vented my frustration harshly against You Three.
    We're all grown ups here, I'm sure all of us can handle sharp words and an internet lashing. I can't apologize for that harsh post... frankly it wouldn't be very sincere because I believe that my frustrations have not been addressed. I don't feel bad about it at all. I was pissed off and I told y'all. Oh noes, again- get the electric chair prepped. Sheesh, I Call someone a jerk, I did my time on ban and let's move on.

    I still don't get the whole sexist thing and three posts later, you won't explain where you draw that conclusion and I no longer care. I posted like an abusive pig-fine. Well, I did it. I vented how I felt and I felt better after having done so. Do you find that selfish- that's ok with me, too. I got it Out There... and I'm ok with that.

    Nor have I denied those words and yes, I cannot in fairness apologize for something I don't feel bad about. Let's be honest- I did not make you cry. If I made you cry, I'd feel bad. I didn't. You're a grown woman and you can handle it, I'm sure.
    I did not make Jdawg/Balerion cry. If I did... Ok, if I did I wouldn't feel "bad..." Ok I'm not sure how I'd feel about that really...
    I did not make JamesR cry. I'm pretty sure I pissed him off, actually. But I don't feel bad about it- I feel like I struck a nerve and I WANTED to strike a nerve for the reasons I spelled out in the post where I copied and pasted what I'd started to write on a notepad for later, never managed to finish and got too distracted to deal with. Again, I'm sure JamesR is a grown man and can handle that some guy on the internet haggled and insulted him just fine. He may have a lower opinion of me and I'm ok with that. Frankly, my opinion of him ain't very shiny right now, either. Maybe he will change that someday with deomstration. Maybe not.
    I'm sure he, as a grown up, has the option to look over the post I made in this thread and ask himself if he was also harsh, if he also said untoward things, if saying "Save it" was proper or if he truly handled things as well as he could have. He may even admit that he did not handle them as well as he could have and quietly and privately tell himself to try to do better. Hell, I do that - I often fail at it, too. We're all human- me too, I verbally abused you three by cussing you out for pissing me off. Fortunately, we're all grown ups here. No one's ice cream hit the ground.

    Awww... get over your crusade. If I tell JamesR NOW, hey, sorry I got harsh, I'll buy ya a beer." Did I threaten him? What I said about remembering your tactics is Clear as Hell and if you're going to distort what I said to mean what you're trying so hard to make it appear like I said- it only makes you a liar. It's disgusting, Bells. An off the cuff remark on the internet about buying JamesR a beer when I'll never ACTUALLY be able to could be called a "threat" more than my saying that I'll remember your tactics- as I remembered you after a two year hiatus. So really, at this point- Unless You Can PROVE some kind of actual intentions in your absurd claims, you need to just drop it. It's annoying.
    Hell, you do it... Belarion does it... get over yourself.
    Well, then punishment given, I did my time. What are you after, now?
    Then get off my back about it until I give you sufficient reason to claim that I am NOW not posting in the manner You want me to post.

    For now, if you want to keep going back and forth, it'll either turn into a shouting match or if we each stay calm, it'll be boring rehashing and rehashing. I mean, really.
     
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  7. Gustav Banned Banned

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    so ahh
    are we moving on or what?
    hmm?
     
  8. Bells Staff Member

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    Leading questions?

    I would ask you direct questions about what you posted. If you are unable to own up to your words, meanings or explain them sufficiently, that is not my problem.

    I will repeat again, I am not privy to your inner most thoughts when I read your posts on here. Your words stand on their own. If they have a different meaning to what you actually posted, I am not to know. So when I and numerous others ask you about what you are posting, it is not a leading question. When you defend your views (such as in the Zimmerman thread) based solely on your having misunderstood what had actually happened, that is no one's fault but your own.

    When someone says "this is a shitforums", and then prattles on about how there are bigger and better ones out there, etc, and then declares 'I'm leaving and not coming back, etc', what do you expect me to say when you return a couple of weeks later and out of the blue, launch an attack about something that happened about a month ago now?

    This has happened what? Two? Three times now?

    It is quite comical. It is like watching you going through a revolving door, screaming when you get in and then hearing that scream lessen to a whine as you hit outside and then get louder as you come back through the door.. rinse and repeat.

    Of course you don't.

    Excuse me. You are the one who came back after being away (several times now) and coming after me directly and openly. Not the other way around. Remember?

    I did not seek you out in that thread. You sought James, Balerion and myself out. I had not said boo to you or about you in the weeks that you had been away. You returned, of your own volition, and accused me of several things, like you are doing now. Apparently my commenting on your vapid return this time is a leading question? My expressing my condolences for the loss of your family member is an insult and my latching onto things that aren't my business? Right...

    And you call me a sociopath?

    Neverfly, you came out of the blue and posted about all of that. My comment prior to your spectacular return was to advise two members to stop talking about you because you were no longer here. I did not care what you were off doing or what was going on in your life. Because it was not any of my business. But then you returned and gave us a running commentary on what you had been doing. So you made it our business by making an argument about it. I told you I did not care..

    No offense, but you have a problem.

    For what reason?

    For the reason that you returned out of the blue, again, and again launched an attack against me for no reason?

    Neverfly, I really do not care if you have zero confidence in my abilities as a moderator. And possibly that is a bother for you?

    But I have the trust and support of this site's owners and colleagues as well as hundreds of posters with whom I do converse with and sometimes moderate. So you? You are, well, nothing to me.

    I wasn't talking about two years ago. I was talking about within the last month or two.

    Look, you are free to come and go as you please.

    But keep in mind that when you burn your bridges like you did in that thread and with those posts, you won't always be greeted with open arms and chocolates upon your return.

    In that thread, you said that you might see me around, after declaring you were leaving this site for good, etc, and then said that you would not forget. I am not talking about 2 years ago or how ever long that was. I am talking about within the last few weeks.

    You remember? When you were banned for those posts.

    Do you understand now how and why that was taken as a threat?

    The thing with threats is that it was taken as such.

    You blame me for my supposed leading questions which led you to say that you would see me around and that you would not forget, after saying you were never coming back to this site? I see.

    Neverfly, I have seen members on this thread actually threatened and had people with your mentality call them up, show up on their doorstep, call up their employers, after managing to track down who they were. I have seen at least one member had another member with your type of mentality be called on his home phone from someone in another country. So believe me when I say that anything is possible and yes, your comments were taken as a threat by me and by the rest of the staff. Do you understand now?

    After you said that this is what happens to robbers, crooks and thieves, I believe?

    Selective memory?

    How exactly am I at fault for you declaring you were leaving, not returning (I think it may have been in this very thread) and then returning after an absence and making those comments directed at myself, James and Balerion? Keeping in mind I had not mentioned you, spoken to you or about you in the time you had been away for those weeks. How exactly is it my fault that you pick a thread that had nothing to do with me whatsoever, or with James or Balerion and you launch that spray?

    The mind boggles.

    What political issues?

    What?

    And character assumptions? You called me a sociopath for disagreeing with you and for asking you questions about your words (remember the Zimmerman debate where you declared that it was logical for the black kid to stop and talk to the stranger following him in car at night, until many many pages later, it finally dawned on you to understand our argument that it is not logical for any child to stop and talk to a stranger in an unmarked car who is following him suspiciously - because you had it in your mind that Zimmerman was wearing a uniform and driving a marked car, even after it was clearly stated that he was not).

    You wish to call me a sociopath? Fine. I'm a sociopath. Accuse me of being whatever that rocks your boat.

    Whatever..

    I am so over this, it's not funny.

    Remember, you came back, out of the blue, and attacked me.. Twice. I wasn't in an active discussion with you. But you did it anyway.

    After you had supposedly left the forum.

    Not the other way around.

    You came back and threatened me, called me a sociopath, abused the administrator of this site, abused another member. Not the other way around.

    And after your ban, after being told by Stryder that you should mind how you post if you wish to remain a member here, your first post after that ban is yet another abusive rant.

    You cannot blame anyone but yourself for such posts. Nor can you blame anyone but yourself for the posts that led to your ban initially. Because you came back, after having left the forum for good (as you had claimed at the time) and said what you said.

    You want to bury the hatchet?

    Then own up to what you said and stop blaming everyone else but yourself for your words.

    I don't blame you for the words that I said against you.

    The only nerve you struck was one of mild disgust with at least one new member who commented about your post in that thread. James, having known James for a very long time now, does not get his nerve struck by people such as yourself. Nor does he get pissed off with people like you.

    We have been doing this for too long and have put up with people worse than you to consider you worthy of pissing us off or striking a nerve.

    If you had, you'd have been banned permanently.

    Grow up.

    No, really. Grow up.

    If you wish to claim you are an adult, then you need to start acting like one and not like a petulant 5 year old who has been sent to his room without desert.

    Again, I wasn't the only one who saw it as such.

    And again, own up to your words, stop blaming others for what you said. Sorry Neverfly, but that shit don't fly here.

    Find me a single post where I made a sexist remark about someone's balls haven't dropped yet and then commenting about my apparently huge balls and then threatened a member of the staff.

    I don't know. You tell me. You are the one who reopened this can of worms. Not me.

    See, had you returned and not posted as you did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

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  9. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    Bells, that entire lengthy post contains essentially nothing but leading statements and questions. For example, playing it off as though I'm somehow trying to deny what I said in the post that led to my ban. In a previous post, playing it off as though I was trying to pretty it up or make it about something else.

    This is that dishonesty that is a "leading Question," or leading other readers to your absurd assumptions/conclusions. At no time, for that example, did I act, imply, hint or claim that I did not make the post that led to the ban. At no time did I say anything that attempted to "Pretty it up," nor did I at any time imply or say that the post was about anything other that what I have repeatedly and consistently said it was about from the very post onward. What I said it was about was in my last post and in that first post. It never changed. Claiming I am blaming others for what I've said- I've done no such thing at all. Ad Hom Character attacks... really- very, very poor posting tactics, Bells. And you were so upset that I insulted you- How odd. You're not above it yourself and in fact, you have been directly insulting me far, far longer than I've been insulting you. You attack my character in almost Every Single post you make about me. Bad behavior for a moderator... Words still stand... I insulted you flat out in one post and you call me an abusive pig. Pot, meet kettle.

    You favor a tactic of linking to a post I made, while leading readers with your own description as to what I said in that post. You did this repeatedly in the Zimmerman thread- leading- resulting in me having to defend myself against several claims you continue to try to rehash in this thread (that rehash consisting of you using a prime example of your inventive reading, by the way...), in spite of it mostly having been settled in that thread (supposedly) and the only complaint lodged that led to this threads creation and me being told by JamesR to "Save it" was against Tiassa and not you (although at the time, as a kindness, I kept it under wraps who I lodged the complaint about.) Please link to my posts without using leading descriptions to describe what I said- any reader can read the post and see my actual words, not what you say that I said.

    This dishonest "leading" tactic is quite apparent and your replies are full of them. Please remove the content where you try to imply/hint/claim/lead other readers to your assumptions/claims/accusations in order for me to make a meaningful reply to honest and direct questions. The post is too full of logical fallacies such as argumentum ad populem, argumentum ad numerum, argumentum ad nausium, leading question, non sequitor and Circulus in demonstrando. Please remove the fallacies and try again.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2012
  10. Gustav Banned Banned

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    so ahh neverfly
    were you stewing over jdawg/balerion all this while?
     
  11. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    Stewing may not be the word that I'd choose, but close enough. I never found the issue to be resolved or even close to it. When I read that thread in which I made that post that got me banned for a while, I used that discontent as an example for his topic along with me venting harshly and without the usual 'polite' inhibitions forums seem to require what I thought of it. I went on to give my thoughts on topic as I related them to my venting rant. Chances are, I'll always be unhappy with JDawg/Belarions tactics along with Bells tactics, as long as they continue to use them. Chances are they will continue to demonstrate that they carry the same grudge.
     
  12. Gustav Banned Banned

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    hmm
    i think you should resolve and get some closure then
    give him a piece of your mind
    bond
     
  13. Balerion Banned Banned

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  14. Gustav Banned Banned

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    /chuckle

    maybe i'll bash neverfly around for a bit
    make him suffer for his honesty
     
  15. Bells Staff Member

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    Mmm hmmm..

    Righteo..

    Hmmm...

    Your frustrations lead to your words..


    It's everyone but you, isn't it?

    From the guy who comes out of nowhere after leaving the forum in a huff and then returning and attacking me.. twice.. when I hadn't said boo to you or about you in your absence. Who not only then called me a sociopath, amongst other things, but then went on to threaten me.

    Again, it's everyone but you, isn't it?

    Care to tell me where I have said I was upset or insulted by you?

    You do realise that I link to the thread, don't you? That people can scroll up and down and read the whole thing, right?

    And we all knew who you lodged your complaint about Neverfly. You never hid it and we had discussed it in the backroom. What you do here does not exist in a vacuum. When you act like you do, we do take note and we do discuss how it should be handled. The agreement was the resolution you were so offended about, which was that we did not see that Tiassa had acted incorrectly.

    Ah, have fun in google dictionary? You realise that two of those mean the same thing? Yes? So essentially you are just repeating the same thing right after the other. And this is ironic because you then go on to accuse me of argumentum ad nauseam.. do you know what this means? Then you tried to claim that I asked leading questions that apparently don't follow.. And then to top it off, claimed that my argument was somehow circular. Can you show me why and where? Remember, you are the one who keeps coming back and forth like a yoyo and going on and on about the same thing, even when everyone else has moved on from it. To claim a non sequitur on top of that, is, well laughable. Do you know why?


    My posts stand as they do. Just as yours do. And guess who comes out sounding like an obsessive psycho? I'll give you a hint. It's not me.
     
  16. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    3,576
    True enough...
    While I admit my words and my choice to use them- even said I got it off my chest and felt better for having done so- while I did not and do not deny the words I used, I never once made any insinuation that you or others gave me no choice but to use them. I said I vented my frustrations, I never said you made me do it.

    No, it most certainly isn't. As I said, I'm human too. I also said I fail too. It would be more appropriate for me to ask you this than for you to ask it of me...

    Just because you did not mention me in your absence does not mean I'm obligated not to mention the major faults in your posting style and behavior at a later time. There is no debt owed to your silence.
    Leading statement.
    I said the behavior fit that description, which by the way, was your description of a sociopath, Bells- One who will take a persons personal pain and use it against them in a debate. You did it two years ago in regards to my son to me and you did it in this thread. You earned and deserved my pointing out the similarity of your behavior that you complained, with the word "sociopath" when describing others doing that to you.
    Leading statement.
    You loosely use the word "threaten" to make it appear far greater than it was. Mountain out of a molehill.

    I also realize that you use a description in order to Lead readers to your own conclusions. I have asked you to not continue that dishonest tactic with my posts.
    I did not speak it directly in this thread- open forum- at that time. So, yes- your statement is a leading one. You say you 'all' knew- who is 'all?' You say you discussed it in the backroom- the backroom is hidden from open forum.
    Please work on not using such suggestive and leading statements.
    This implies that if I piss the moderators off, they do not care to seek proper justice.

    Yes, it means that you argue ad nauseam regularly when you rehash in your many attacks on me. You repeat your absurd conclusions again and again, possibly in hopes that if it's repeated enough, people will simply begin to believe it. Also, you ask about google dictionary, yet you then correct my spelling (by the way, you misspelled "realize" unless that's a British spelling... I'm not going to bother to check) which shows I probably didn't use a dictionary... that's fun.
    As far as two meaning the same thing- Not correct. The distinction between the two is that to argue ad numerum is to appeal to the public as a general belief whereas to argue ad populum is to argue as to agreement of the public in the immediate vicinity in order to appeal to authority- such as judges. They are similar but not the same and should not be used interchangeably.
    Please learn your logical fallacies.
    To claim that I do something is grounds for you to also do it is a fallacy. What I do is up to me, it does not determine your behavior. If you say, "Neverfly you're a hypocrite" you are not then required to also be one, are you? If I say that you are a hypocrite, and assume I am one, it does not mean you are not one simply because I claimed it.
    A great many of your claims against me are leading questions and statements or questions that do not follow. You jump to wild conclusions, such as that if I say in a case where (you ignored) we don't have enough information on this particular case but generally (that's the bit you extracted/ignored, yet was very important to what followed), "I do not pity a guy that gets caught red-handed shoplifting and gets beat up" and you then claim with a leading question that I believe in security guards inflicting the death penalty. It's very leading and most certainly does not follow with what I had said.
    The only thing laughable here, Bells, is that it's gotten to that point where I truly believe that you are incapable of examining your own tactics and words and trying to improve them, so I've become impatient and insulting instead. (Although, some may find it also laughable that you claim I'm going on and on over the same things while everyone else has moved on... Including you.... Right? What was that you were just saying about it being logical for a black kid... eh... Must have been my psychosis acting up again... Nevermind. I must be hearing things.)

    Leading statements with links... as usual. Yes, I vented and told you what I think of you. I even called you, "bat shit crazy" if I recall. You can think about how I was banned for it and get the warm fuzzy's if you like. I don't recall ever saying that post doesn't come across as a person who is fed up with your despicable behavior. As you keep saying, the posts stand and I fully agree. So why do you bother with the leading questions, leading statements and the like? Why don't you just link it and have the respect for others to have the wit to reach their own conclusions?

    So now we're at that point again- beating a dead horse until it's boring.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2012
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    36,367
    A Note for Neverfly

    A Note for Neverfly

    I would like to offer you a compromise.

    You will ... return to the forum according to your own general inclination, but drop, for the time, all of this anti-authoritarian bullshit. You are certainly welcome to engage me via private message, and perhaps we can work through this seemingly conspiratorial bullshit and find some semblance of reality.

    We will ... leave prior disagreements between yourself and the staff alone, and offer something near to a tabula rasa.​

    In truth, I just don't see the basis of your complaint. And, in truth, we're not permanently expelling your user ID from this community because, well, you're somebody, and we don't want to treat you like a nobody.

    Perhaps that seems trite, or even crazy for its condescending implications. But it's what I can offer you, and that's as good as you're going to get.

    I'm sufficiently convinced to finalize the situation, but I would much rather build a lasting relationship.

    In other words, it is my desire to avoid a jackbooting—which, to be certain, I would accept and even support—that moves me to this offer. I get it; some people think we're Nazi thugs. I can't change their minds, but I can certainly try to avoid the fulfillment of their self-fulfilling prophecies.
     
  18. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,576


    Edit to Add: My response here addresses the legitimate complaints I started out with and maintain to this day- not the venting diatribe that I admit I quite enjoyed making because I'm a bastard like that.
    I welcome this offer but I must say- it's not anti-authoritarian bullshit. That's an attitude on your part that is unproductive, defensive and accusatory all at the same time. Perhaps you currently believe my complaints do not have merit. I believe you're either ignoring the evidence or have not examined it properly. Please refrain from the attitudes unless you really can show they are warranted.
    I have what I believe to be legitimate complaints. Being told from the outset to "save it" and being dogged each step of the way is not conspiracy at all- It's All Out In The Open. There's no conspiracy there. And I have mentioned no conspiracy.
    IF you just haphazardly label it as just anti-authoritarian bullshit, how can I possibly trust you to hold legitimate discussion in PM where you would LISTEN to what's said instead of injecting more of the same except in private instead of public?

    See, here's my problem- I can drop all past complaints but I have No Doubt in my mind whatsoever that the unresolved issues will surface again in the near future.
    Eh, it's good enough for me. I'm somebody to Tiassa. Hell- that's worth bragging about.
    On the contrary- I don't think you're nazi's or thugs- I just think you're TOO HUMAN. I said this before in this very thread:
    I'm well aware that moderating an internet forum is a very difficult and often thankless task. This isn't anything new that I'm saying.
    You can't please everyone. No matter what you do, someone is gonna bitch about it. I get that. I'm not asking for unreasonable expectations here- not by a long shot.

    I had even said clearly that ANY PM between myself and any moderator may be shared by all other moderators. Because at the time, I thought it would promote more understanding and discussion amongst the group to what I had to say. Imagine how disappointed I was to find out that each moderator seemed to know little to nothing of what I said and I had to repeat and repeat and keep repeating myself?

    Any moderator can PM me anytime and discuss issues or apologize or privately chastize or even admit to being human. What I do NOT agree with is abuse of power, attitudes or bias from an authority that is supposed to not show bias or discrimination. Can you honestly disagree with the notion of standing up against discrimination? I'm sure you can't - it's just a harder pill to swallow if the one stood up against turns out to be YOU. Again, I get that.

    But in fairness, I do not hate you, nor Bells. IU actually like you Tiassa. I don't always agree with you but you make damn good posts most of the time. I know you're human, I know JamesR is too. I know you're grown up enough to take a thrashing and I know you have the ability for objective observation. I also know you are a human being, a primate who has evolved to respond a certain why to the social orders we are accustomed to. You're not immune from it. All I have EVER asked for from Day 1 was the
    decency
    and
    courtesy
    to cut the *$^#%#% bullshit and give me half a chance to express my own self in my OWN words and be heard.

    Not to be told "I'm right cuz I'm might." (In so many words)
    Not to be told to "Save it."
    Not to be told I cannot win the argument or to let it go since I lack the authority and most Certainly not to accept the attitudes expressed by moderators, no matter how heavy their frustration, when they haven't really had the courtesy to Really Look at what I asked them to see and make a fair judgment call.
     
  19. Balerion Banned Banned

    Messages:
    8,596
    I've tried to tell you this is the past: Get over it. Everyone else does. Bells and I used to have pretty nasty spats, but we got over it and moved on. Why can't you do the same? Let's just get past it and get back to posting about stuff.
     
  20. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,576
    Because I am me. I'm not you.

    Because I do not believe in that. I do not believe that the past is always past when there is ample evidence that the past will repeat itself.

    I believe in speaking out when one feels they are wronged. Not listening when the cowards declare, "You cannot win. Let it go." "Sounds like obsession, to me." "Are you paranoid?" "what's the big deal?" "Oh sure, it's everyone else... the world is out to get you, huh?" it's a method, a tactic to trick you into thinking that it's you that something is wrong with; it's intimidation- all friendly-like. It's designed to Cast Doubt on Yourself.

    Funny thing, it happens to us all. A smart ass checker at Wal-Mart. A McDonald's drive through attendant that is rude and obnoxious. An Insurance company that rakes you over the coals. A doctor that misdiagnosis and a hospital that refuses to investigate the claim. From the small to the major, these injustices happen to us all on a daily basis. We all experience it and the majority shrug and sigh and they say, "Guess I gotta pay." "Guess there's nothing I can do about it." "I can't win this, I gotta let it go." "Don't want people to think I'm crazy for raising hell about it..."
    A rare one will even muster up the courage to say, "I wish someone would DO something about this."

    Well, I'm a someone who will try. I'm tenacious. I'm not saying it's a quality and it may even be a fault- But I BELIEVE in it for a reason.
    Never let the bastards grind you down. The naysayers claim that you're over-reacting. Don't listen. Never let anyone tell you what you can and cannot win, that you're obsessing or stalking the issue- Because they are the hypocritical cowards of the majority that get abused and roll over and expose the white belly making it harder on the rest of us to get justice. All of those that knuckle under and don't make it difficult on those that either abuse willingly or even by mistake make it more difficult for the rest of us to desist abuse.

    We NEED people that will speak out- question everything, hold accountable the powers that be and never roll over and expose the white belly to lame excuses, justifications, abuse and intimidation.

    Think of the last two hundred years of history and tell me: How would our lives be today if people "let it go" when the going got tough, when they were ridiculed and laughed at by a larger crowd for standing up for themselves or daring to oppose the status quo?
     
  21. Balerion Banned Banned

    Messages:
    8,596
    Look, I don't disagree that the moderation here is a train wreck. But you were in the wrong here, and you don't see any of the mods campaigning to have you removed permanently. Just the opposite, in fact. Tiassa, who I think is one of the biggest offenders out there, is actually extending an olive branch to you. That's pretty freaking awesome, and you're spitting on it by refusing to move past this.

    Bells doesn't hound you, she's trying to stay away from you. But you won't let that happen. You're the one keeping the fire going, Fly.

    And while I agree it's fine to speak out when the mods mess up, it ultimately amounts to nothing. Say your piece and move on. You've done the former, now do the latter. Otherwise you're just making things worse. Trust me, I've had this problem with Bells. Well, not this problem, but a problem, and I went after her until it became clear there was nothing she could say to me that was going to result in any sort of infraction or removal from her position. Then I moved on, and so did she. We actually get along okay now, on the occasions when we do speak. But mostly we don't even talk to each other. So peace can be found, Fly, trust me. It's just a matter of letting go. I grant, it's shitty that she's not accountable, but none of them are, and mostly the same could be said of any moderator on any internet forum anywhere.

    Anyway, just move on, man. Find a new thread, let's rap about some stuff.
     
  22. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,576
    This is utterly inaccurate. I did not make any refusal to move past anything, I accepted the branch and tied a branch of my own onto it. If you're going to do this- please step out of the discussion because such inaccuracy will only confuse the issue.

    It always takes two, JDawg- think about it. It always takes two people to argue. That means both parties are equally guilty of arguing- not matter who wants to claim to be the more "right."
    We know it.
    Maybe I will. Maybe I'll do both. Maybe I'll fight the Mods. Maybe the Mods and I may end up having a very enlightening and meaningful discussion. Maybe I'll just end up banned forever.
    I appreciate your input but at this point, it's now between me and them. I raised major hell- I complained, I spoke out- I've been offered that branch to listen and I accepted it and voiced my concerns. All of this has been made clear and at THIS point, it's likely to continue for a while between them and I. And an outcome will be reached...
     
  23. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    23,405
    I haven't responded or spoken to you in around 20 hours now, and you're still arguing....

    Seriously, move on already.
     
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