Open note for Moderators

Discussion in 'SF Open Government' started by Neverfly, Jun 1, 2012.

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  1. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    This post is both leading and misleading. Please stop hounding me Bells. Honestly the existence of the post with it's wording completely contradicts the message you shot for. There was no need nor necessity for you to make this post, really... I responded to your last post number 172 with post number 173. I've not talked to you since that reply and have responded to other posts. What you just now said makes no sense at all... Unless you are wanting to continue arguing knowing that such inaccuracy begs for my attention and that I'm fool enough to give it? Well, I'm that foolish, Bells and we both know it. It definitely smacks of the appearance of trying to draw me out.
    Hey, if I'm wrong, feel free to ignore this post and do what you suggest... If I'm right- reply and argue with me about it.
     
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  3. Balerion Banned Banned

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    To quote you:

    This is you saying "Yeah, but..." In other words, it's the opposite of moving on. You can't just take the offer, you have to accept and then get all your shots in, which means you're not really accepting the offer at all.

    No, that's not true. You started this crap, you continue this crap. Bells has every right to defend herself against your accusations.

    Alright, so you're intent to troll. I was just trying to get you to see how useless and pathetic this exercise is, but you've proven to me that it's equally useless and pathetic to expect you to act like a reasonable human being. So I'll leave you to it, then.
     
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  5. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    Your interpretation of it impresses me not the least. What I said stands as VALID. Had Tiassa not said, "Anti-authoritive bullshit" or JamesR not said "Save it" they would have gotten polite and agreeable responses. They both responded with that attitude of negativity and recieved negativity.
    Your interpretation is your own- I'll ask you to leave it to Tiassa to interpret what I said to him on his own- thanks.

    And Tiassa offered to Discuss the issue with me- he did not offer for me to just Shut the hell up and move along silently to please Balerion.
    Sure she does. Discussion isn't arguing- IS IT?
    Arguing is not a discussion.
    I ALSO HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEFEND. I'd appreciate it if you got up off my back about it.
    Thank you, please do leave me to it. You're not only trolling, you're trying to confuse the issue and I lack the patience for it.


    Edit to add: You know what- the hell with it. Since Balerions posts at this point are unproductive and an annoyance that will only confound the issue - I'm placing Balerion temporarily on ignore until Tiassa or Bells have their say. My apologies to those enjoying the internet soap opera but paying attention to his posts at this point will only do more harm than good since they offer no real substance.
     
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  7. Balerion Banned Banned

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    So because they didn't cave to your demands that your trolling be vindicated, you'll troll even harder. Got it.

    I doubt he sees it differently.

    He offered to discuss it with you privately. You spat on that offer as well by ranting publicly.

    No one said you didn't. You've already said your piece. All anyone's doing is asking you to move on now.

    Your lack of patience is noted. As is your lack of control.
     
  8. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    hey Neverfly, I have been casually reading this threads dialogue over time and now that Lord of the internet Balerion has turned up to abuse you further...keep in mind his main ambition is to have you banned simply because it is a power trip for him and not because it has any real forum community benefit. In fact one wonders what Balerion has ever done to serve the community other than divide it and take advantage of others "apparent to him" weaknesses.

    Please do not confuse those who have the sciforums community at heart and those such as Balerion who seek only to gain perverse benefit from your individual destruction as a member of that community.
     
  9. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    22,510
    uhm... sorry ... who is it that has the lack of control?

    repeatedly posting the same attack upon just about every member you happen to think has a lack of control as some sort of trial or test definitely reeks of a lack of control on your part... in fact a challenge for you Balerion:
    start a thread [topic] that actually benefits the sciforums community [the whole community] and earn some respect instead.
     
  10. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    Thank you quacker and and it helps to have what I suspect confirmed to some degree- I'm not some high and mighty optimist, but I still have the basic faith in readers to have the intelligence to see through the bullcrap and recognize situations in spite of the attempts of some to pervert, distort or misrepresent reality.

    I can be quite wrong at times. I can over-react or just jump to conclusions... But I can be right at times, too. The integrity of a forum is crucial to helping fallible members such as myself to stay on track without inhibiting free expression and exchange of ideas. I do find this forum lacking in that ability... It confounds rather than clarify. But I also do hope to interfere, to meddle, to influence in hopes of playing a small part in encouraging improvement, sometimes.

    Othertimes, I just wanna cuss someone out. Occasionally, I do.

    Much as it galls me to admit it- I do actually care. It's a shame to see a science forum go to waste.

    And funny thing- I've wondered if Balerion himself is actually just a puppet. I find his strange run ins with the mods simply too contradictory to how he conveniently defends them while pretending to harass them.

    Note how Tiassa essentially handed me a broken branch-he backhanded it to me. The trap being, to accept the branch in full meant I was to admit to being anti-authoritative and therefor utterly invalid. I didn't fall for the trap, but rather accepted upon the extension of a branch of my own. Recognize the trap- offer a compromise of my own... All of the sudden, here comes Balerion, creating the illusion that I spit upon a valid branch, while acting like he can't stand the mods. I find it suspicious, is all. Just odd. The timing of it. It doesn't add up.

    Of course, it could just be a quirk of his.
     
  11. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Neverfly, it is not my role at sciforums to judge your posts, this is for the moderators to do so when they are called in by other members due to what ever coincerns they may have.

    It is not my role to be critical of the moderation of this forum either unless in the appropriate manner, such as what you are doing here in this thread.

    My role is to enjoy my membership of a community of thinkers, some of whom I can agree with and can agree with me and some I can't. It is in the handling of disagreement obviously that tests whether a forum will ultimately succeeed as a community or not.

    There are with out doubt many issues to do with this online community currently at play. You nor I are fully aware of them so the benefit of the doubt needs to be given to those who are supposedly in a more priviledged information position.

    The situation is fluid, and constantly evolving.

    Are you prepared to allow for that evolution, to allow the past to resolve as we all move forward as a community?

    It is not a question of who is right or wrong but a question of how you as a member can serve yourself and the community better , more effectively and recieve greater personal benefit accordingly.
    I intervened with my post directed towards Balerion to distract him from his attack upon you so that the important issues you have been raising [ by default of your personal experience] can be looked at by all members interested in the future of their own participation. [collectively or individually]
    I have never read any of your posts but will now do so after reading of your tolerance displayed in this thread, ...and kudos to the moderators you are engaging as well....tolerance is not a right.

    A key thing to realise is that there is no more insideous from of mental health issue than that which is undiagnosed and for all "accounts and purposes" appears to be healthy.
    In other words insanity dressed up as sanity can produce the most insane situations.
    am I sane.... of course not...and never have been....
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2012
  12. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    On the contrary, I believe it's quite necessary for the members of a forum to judge my posts. They may not moderate my posts or myself, but I fully expect them to judge and weigh everything I have to say.
    I've only read a few of your posts and if I recall, I disagreed with most of them

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    If such can be stated, it's also only fair to say that they must give me the benefit of the doubt, as well.
    I keep getting asked this...
    Of course. I'm just not one to allow things to just blow over or to accept things or leave them feeling unresolved.
    I suspect some of the Mods are this way as well sometimes. Just because I want resolution does not mean one can claim I will never let go, etc.
    I'm perfectly willing to let past go but that doesn't mean I'm willing to be walked on.
    While there is give and take in regards to who is right and wrong- considering that both parties are likely to have their own share of right and of wrong, a member cannot serve a community well if the community itself is flawed in significant ways. I see your point, but I also see things differently in regards to how far I'm willing to take my actions.
    I believe that in certain areas, I am right. I'm willing to stand up for that belief and try to convince the powers that be.
    Did you see where I went off all 'flamey' insult attack and bite?

    Distractions- LOL
    I see your point. I think all members should pay strong attention to the health of moderation on any forum.
     
  13. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    22,510
    agrees!
     
  14. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    22,510
    Except this point:
    playing the devils advocat:
    are you seeking resolution or retribution?
    are you seeking resolution or vindication?
    are you seeking resolution or Justice in a situation where "real" justice is unavialable.
    Do you want the mods to put up a sign on the index page saying how they apologise for their unjust actions?


    Most importantly:

    How can you be compensated for the crimes you percieve have been committed against you?
    Is it even possible?
    What is it you actually want?

    How can a resolution be achieved in your mind?
     
  15. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    There are three things- One, something I feel is an injustice against me.
    Two, something I feel will be a persistent problem that I must contend with.
    Three, certain behaviors that I believe affect all members of the forum and should be analyzed.

    Vindication is nice.
    Retribution- while the promise of smug satisfaction may seem appealing, it really isn't. If Bells for example posts in a manner I believe causes her and I to fight- a dressing down may offer smug satisfaction but no long term affects. I'd much prefer we understood eachother well enough to NOT push eachothers buttons- I'm convinced these days that this is impossible.
    I do not believe Bells WANTS to get along with me. A person that did would not jump to very wild conclusions when I speak.
     
  16. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    22,510
    OK... so how will you or we, the members, know that a resolution has been acheived to your satisfaction, other than by the test of time?
    How will you or we know that a resolution to your satisfaction, has changed the future?

    What do you feel needs to happen to finish this thread and allow it to fall into archives...?
     
  17. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    Only time will tell, really. For my complaint on Tiassa- it could be quite quick. It's a simple one.

    For Bells- it's a lot more complex- Even if Bells and I work out a peace treaty now, I find it not unthinkable we'll smash it to bits later.
    And for all the mods as a group- I believe they are too long set in their ways.
     
  18. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    22,510
    well I think thats a great idea... work out a treaty between you with Bells.. Accept that you can't change the past and only the future...
    understand that "crimes" can never be compensated for - not really, only tokenism [ lessons - punishment] and apology [rehabilitation] are available.

    and give it a shot....
     
  19. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Neverfly. Were you unable to follow the thread?

    Ranting at the mirror again, Quack? The second you become a productive member here at Sci, then you can tell me what I need to do.
     
  20. Neverfly Banned Banned

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    Maybe you misunderstand- I'm not worried about compensation. I mean really- it's an internet forum. I'm worried about the bad blood- the assumptions- the leading questions...

    Let me give this to you from my perspective based on what I believe:
    I believe that Bells has formed an image of what kind of person she thinks I am. She compares what I say to this rather, unflattering character she believes me to be and this causes her to jump to conclusions with things I say.
    It's her constant use of Leading Questions that sets the whole thing off.
    It's far too accusatory.

    For example, if I said I do not pity a man caught in the act of a crime red handed and beaten up- she responds with a Leading Question that is, frankly- Absurd. Yet, to her it makes sense...
    "Are you saying you support security guards inflicting the death penalty on people?"
    Every connotation in that accusatory and leading sentence is far removed from anything I had said. It's far fetched, abusrd and uncalled for. Had she said, "Why don't you pity them?" Or, "Do you really think it's ok for security to assault people instead of detaining them?" I have no doubt in my mind that I'd not have thought twice about responding without my defenses rising through the roof.
    Such exaggerations are unnecessary and lead directly to our conflicts. I cannot explain this to her in a way she understands- It's likely a basic personality conflict and I don't believe it can be resolved, easily or through a lot of work. Neither of us think enough of the other to put work into it, you see.
    This leads to an impression of her on my end of a person that wants the conflict and uses these exaggerations deliberately to cause me to flame out.
    It's not so easy as saying, "Bells, your wording that way out of context. Can you reword it this way?" I've tried that and it gets nowhere. She will word things as she sees fit. It's like if I say something she disagrees with, she doesn't see my words- she sees all the words of all the people she's known that took the most extreme opposite position to her world view. Which quite likely was a position I don't support either. Yet I get clumped into it.
    I do not see "Setting the past aside" as doing anything more than discounting what's not been resolved. I do not believe there is a resolution, really. So even if Bells and I metaphorically shook hands right now and declared, "Past is past. Let's start with a clean slate." Within the first thread we disagree on something the whole thing would blow up again because of history, bad blood, wording that each of us may use that infuriates the other and so on. Some folks just don't mix. And it's disruptive.

    The simplest resolution, really, is for Bells and I not to discuss issues on the board. And since she's a mod, that's not so easy.
     
  21. Balerion Banned Banned

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    If you know she's setting you up with "leading questions," it becomes your responsibility to not take the bait. And if you don't want to discuss issues with her, don't. You can't put her on ignore because she's a mod, but you can refuse to answer her posts. That you don't refuse to puts the onus on you.
     
  22. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    22,510
    Actually I agree with Balerion in this instance.
    ( to me it is of no concern whether Balerion hates my guts or not. What he has said above is I believe worthy of serious consideration. I take what I need/want or value and I reject what I don't.)

    ....to the point that, in life we can not control the opinions nor actions of others. We can only control if we are able to, our own.

    It is when an attempt is made to influence someone into changing their actions and opinion beyond that which they are happy to do so generates intolerance and hostility.
    In fact most wars are fought because of this very same issue. IMO

    It's bit like asking the following:


    Neverfly do you believe Bells has equal right to you to express her opinon in what ever way she feels she needs to?
    Bells do you believe Neverfly has equal right to you to express her opinon in what ever way she feels she needs to?
    If yes is the answer to both questions no more conflict is needed or even wanted.
    But if no is answered by either party, conflict is inevitable.
     
  23. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Neverfly:

    I think the best advice you've had since your latest visit here has been from Tiassa in post #174, above. I concur with what he said. Having said that, I'll add a few comments of my own.

    I'm sorry you're lost your pet. I've lost a few of them, and it's never a fun thing.

    Not locked and cesspooled by me, I note. Not that I disagree with locking and cessing it.

    The "going ballistic" thing was in itself a gentle jibe. Are you laughing? No? You seem willing to dish it out, but you have a low tolerance when it comes back at you.

    You won't get banned for opposing my authority, as such, Neverfly. Only for breaches of the site posting guidelines. Really, it's not that hard.

    As for the whole respect thing, I generally work to earn and maintain the respect of people I respect myself. And my level of respect for you took a bit of a dive when you "went ballistic". As an administrator here with over a decade of experience of dealing with members, I don't tend to take things personally, most of the time.

    You seem a bit fixated on that "save it" comment of mine, since you keep repeating it and referring to it. But the thing is... it doesn't sound like the kind of expression I'd normally use. Where was this response of mine? In a thread? If so, could you please link it? Or was it a PM? If so, could you please give me the date I sent it to you? Because I'd hate to think you're all riled up about a comment you thought I made but which I didn't actually make.

    The complaints were the same issues you keep raising about Bells, weren't they? I haven't seen anything in this thread that suggests that action by me is required.

    You and Balerion should get together and have a mutual whinge session about me. In the meantime, I'm sure you can read my replies to him regarding the same complaints.

    Also, please don't put words in my mouth. If you want to comment on something I've said, quote me and then comment. Don't make stuff up, please. And don't paraphrase me to twist my words into something you'd like me to have said because it suits your argument of the moment.

    The main thing I don't care to do is to inject myself into personal arguments and animosities between members or between members and moderators (or moderators and other moderators for that matter). So, if you give me a 10 page breakdown of your latest complaint about how moderator X doesn't like you and is being biased towards you, giving me all the nitty gritty and inviting me to delve into whatever factual issue it was that started the whole argument in the first place, chances are that I will have enough other things to attend to that I just won't have time to wade through it all.

    Even looking at the first page of the current thread, you made a complaint - not for the first time - and my first question to you was: what, in short, is the issue you want sorted? And how do you want it sorted? If you can't answer that in a few sentences, then it's probably reasonable to assume that you just have a vague and ill-defined general grievance which won't fall neatly into enforcing the site rules.

    It is telling that there's been no apology from you. Did you read my response to you regarding basic manners and decency?

    I agree!

    I didn't cry and I wasn't pissed off. It's not the first time somebody has had a spray at me. Like I said at the top of my reply, my primary response was disappointment in you.

    I must say: I'm glad you've come back a bit more reasonable after your break from the forum. I'm glad you have seagypsy to talk to about this stuff, too. There are a lot of lonely, disgruntled men (especially) on the internet who stew on these kinds of things and have difficulty getting some perspective. As you say, real life is going on out there.
     
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