One point concerning "Angles, Saxons, and Jutes":

Discussion in 'Linguistics' started by LingLang, Aug 11, 2011.

  1. LingLang Registered Member

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    I had originally conceived of this post as a response to the thread concerning dialect diversity in modern England, but I realized that it is more generally applicable than that. In this spirit, I have eliminated all material specific to that thread (to which I shall reply in about an hour (my typing skills are terrible!), and created this new thread, which I hope all interested will find informative:

    ***

    Two reliable products of modern scholarship paint a picture of far more diverse settlement of "thaem maesten dael Bryttnes" than that claimed by the Venerable Bede.

    I here cite from: Robinson, Orrin W. "Old English and its Closest Relatives: a Survey of the Earliest Germanic Languages" (Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press, 1992), p.137:

    "According to Bede, the forebears of the Anglo-Saxons of his day came from three great Germanic groups on the Continent: the Saxons; the Angles, who lived north of the Saxons on Jutland peninsula, in Modern Schleswig; and the Jutes, who are supposed to have lived north of the Angles, also on the Jutland peninsula, Modern research suggests two rather large revisions of this picture.

    In the first place, it seems unlikely that the Jutes came directly from Jutland, if at all; rather, their archaeological remains bear a striking resemblance to those of the Ripuarian Franks of the middle Rhine. The second revision, which has some support from old sources, would include large numbers of Frisians among the invading tribes."

    ***

    My second source is Chickering, Howell D. Jr. "Beowulf: a Dual-Language Edition" (Garden City, NY: Anchor Books, 1977), p. 248:

    "A high level of Anglo-Saxon culture also existed in seventh-century East Anglia, as we can see from the magnificent Royal ship-burial discovered in 1939 at Sutton Hoo, Suffolk. This treasure-burial is sufficiently like the burials of Scyld and Beowulf to suggest that possibly the poem was composed in the East Anglian royal palace.of the Wuffing dynasty at nearby Rendlesham, within living memory of the ship-burial, which is dated to A.D. 625-55. The mound at Sutton-Hoo contained some grave-goods that link it with the royal burials at Uppsala, Sweden. With surprising exactness, Beowulf describes goods not merely of Anglo-Saxon times, but also Swedish goods of the presumed date of the historical events in the poem. A.D. 500-600. Was it through the early East Anglian court that the

    [p. 249]

    detailed knowledge of Scandinavian tribal history in Beowulf became available in England? The genealogy of the East Angles names one Wehha as the first king to rule over them in England. His son was Wuffa, from whom the dynasty took its name, the Wuffingas. These names correspond roughly to Weohstan, Wiglaf, and the Wylfingas [this author's own two cents: although Professor Chickering's argument makes sense in terms of sound-similarity, it doesn't make sense morphologically, as Wylfingas clearly means "The Sons of the Wolves", whereas Wiglaf, the man after whom the "Sons of the Wolves" tribe was supposedly named, clearly contains the initial element "wig", which means "war". (I'm still working on the meaning of the "-laf" element)] in Beowulf. It is conceivable that the Geats (in Swedish, the "Gauts") who lived near Uppsala, migrated to Anglia under the leadership of Weohstan or Wiglaf, bringing with them Swedish heirlooms that were later buried at Sutton Hoo. Perhaps they left Gautland after a disastrous defeat by the Swedes, as prophesied at the end of Beowulf. That the poem was composed under such circumstances makes a tantalizing hypothesis, but, alas, it cannot be definitely proven"

    ***

    My point is that the Germanic settlement of "thaem maesten dael Bryttnes" seems to have been a proper free-for-all, not limited to just three ethnic groups.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2011
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  3. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    Wow.:worship:

    Welcome to here
     
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  5. LingLang Registered Member

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    Glad to be here.

    Just one request:

    I once found that I'd gathered a cult-like following around myself who wouldn't challenge me even when I deliberately seeded my statements with errors just to see whether or not they would challenge me, and it freaked me out. (Seriously, my post-traumatic stress disorder got much worse when I realized what was happening.)

    So, could you please edit that "bowing-down guy" smiley out of your reply?

    Thanks!
     
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  7. Hesperado Don't immanentize the eschaton Registered Senior Member

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    Those damned French...! Can't even keep them out of "pure" pre-Conquest Britain...

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  8. LingLang Registered Member

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    The Franks to which I refer are a Western Germanic speaking people, not the modern Romance-speaking nation of today (whose language just manages to have a HUGE Germanic-style vowel inventory (about 18, if I recall correctly from my college days of decades ago), as opposed to the Latin 5 which most other Romance languages exhibit).

    And, "pure" pre-conquest Britain was never "pure", as there was borrowing from the local Brythonic languages (e.g., "crag"), as well as pre-historic borrowings into English from languages as diverse as Avestan Persian (e.g.: "path", from Avestan Persian "panth").
     
  9. skaught The field its covered in blood Valued Senior Member

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    Oh you will be challenged here!
     
  10. LingLang Registered Member

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    So I pray!!!
     
  11. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    I just love the word Bretwalda.

    Sometimes I scream " WHO WILL BE BRETWALDA??!!?" at the top of my lungs in singles bars....the girl who understands, wins the deepest affections of my heart lol...
     
  12. LingLang Registered Member

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    Yes, it means "wood of the Britons".
     
  13. scheherazade Northern Horse Whisperer Valued Senior Member

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    Welcome to the forum, LingLang.

    Who are you to suggest to another how they should respond to you?

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    In regards to your comments above, ask yourself WHY people chose not to challenge you.

    Perhaps they were not interested enough in your content to verify it or respond? :bugeye:

    (No need to waste your time in responding to me. I tend to 'hit and run' and you've already effectively alienated any initial interest I may have felt in this topic. Besides, I like to deploy smileys and images.)
     
  14. LingLang Registered Member

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    I'm having a really hard time figuring out how to use this forum. I want to PM an Admin to learn the rules for posting a cite to my own academic work. (Not to worry: it's an analysis of the Chronicles from the original, and I'll certainly post my transcription of the original together with cites sufficient to identify the source material with great specificity.)

    Can someone tell me how to do this?
     
  15. scheherazade Northern Horse Whisperer Valued Senior Member

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    You post some interesting stuff, nietzschefan, lol....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bretwalda#Etymology

    For the OP as I'm rather certain you already know this stuff.

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  16. LingLang Registered Member

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    I feel I must respond.

    Most of what I've spoken of happened in person, not on the 'net, so I know it wasn't lack of interest.

    But, you're correct in saying that I have no right to dictate how others respond to me.

    If what I spoke of concerning interpersonal relationships alienated any interest you may once have had in the topic, then you don't seem to me to be to have been interested in the topic in the first place. I have grown accustomed to suffering for my science, as has every other serious scientist I've ever met. At some point, we all come to the realization that the truth is more important than our comfort, and, eventually, we gain sufficient confidence in our craft to accept ridicule and effusive, uncritical acceptance (I'd rather take the former than the latter) as the price of trying to teach the world a new thing (even if it's only a very minor contribution).
     
  17. LingLang Registered Member

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    Originally Posted by nietzschefan
    I just love the word Bretwalda.

    Sometimes I scream " WHO WILL BE BRETWALDA??!!?" at the top of my lungs in singles bars....the girl who understands, wins the deepest affections of my heart lol...

    THANKS!!

    So the "Bret" might be the same word as "brittle"!

    It makes sense!

    I'm a little less convinced about the second part, though, as walda, taken as "wield", seems to lack the diphthongization clearly present in OE "weald" ("wield"), and this little phonological piece seems, to me, to be significant.

    This could also mean "broken wooded area", which is precisely the meaning of the Dutch word which is the origin of the name of the borough of Brooklyn, NY.

    ***

    NO! NO! CORRECTION:

    I failed to identify the -a suffix in Walda as the agentive suffix. So, it is clearly an agentive noun, which would certainly eliminate "wood" as a meaning. So, "wielder" can be the only possible meaning.

    Sorry!!
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2011
  18. scheherazade Northern Horse Whisperer Valued Senior Member

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    LingLang,

    My maternal side hails from England and my paternal side from East Germany.

    You drop in here citing yourself as THE reference source on this subject, criticize an established poster and now you want forbearance for your presumed suffering.

    Welcome to reality.

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    You underestimate my interest. I actually took the time to post in your thread. There are many, many others here. :bugeye:

    I'm off to work shortly.. I'll observe what interaction comes from others at this forum.
     
  19. LingLang Registered Member

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    See what I mean about the benefits of opposition?

    When I'm challenged, I have the chance to actually learn.

    One of my biggest problems with certain people is that they think they get smarter by talking instead of by listening.

    That;s what I love about being challenged: even though I'm doing most of the talking, I still have the opportunity to learn.

    THANKS!!!
     
  20. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    Ya it's supposed to be "Wielder of Briton".(Bryton or whatever)
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2011
  21. LingLang Registered Member

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    Please read my edit of the post to which you refer, and my new post.

    The case is, I agreed with this post of yours even before I knew it existed.
     
  22. LingLang Registered Member

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    It could mean that, or it could mean "wide ruler".

    Are you an Englishman with a traditional understanding of the meaning of that term? (I am one who places a high priority on the oral tradition of a people.)
     
  23. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    I come from a long line of fine Englishmen (I am told, no idea who the milkmen were).

    However I found the term reading old King Arthur legends, (Geoffery of Monmouth etc)
     

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