On "time dilation reciprocity" in SRT

Since the question I submitted to the astronomer at Cornell has not been answered yet,

I have been searching for evidence of reciprocal observations of time dilation. It seems to me that certain muon interactions show that reciprocal time dilation must occurr.

 

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SuperL.
Is not it true that the observation of muons in cosmic rays already proves the "reciprocity" of time dilation? Do we really need any other explanation?

 

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Not me! Could you please clarify this a bit?

 

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SuperL,
Simply I always thought that the fact that we see the cosmic muons, which are created in the upper layers of Earth's atmosphere and have the proper life-time 2.2microsec, proves the 'reciprocity' of the SRT's time dilation "ideology". When I sow as you started looking for prove of "reciprocity" and even asked some astronomer about such proves, I thought: " Why he does that, if the best prove is right here, under our noses?"

 

Yuriy,

So what you are saying is that since, from the muons point of view it always only lives 2.2us, it could never "see" a clock it was approaching on earth measuring out 2.2us. It must "see" the earth clock slowed since it really does make it the tens of microseconds to the surface! And we see the muon "clock" slowed by the same reasoning. Of course! Brilliant. I bow to the master. Thanks (assuming I got the jist right?). I guess SRT lives!

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You clearly do not understand the term "reciprocity". He is not talking about one sided time dilation but the requirement in SRT of equivelance and the fact that either clock can claim the position of rest and it is the other clock that becomes dilated.

It has never once been shown to exist and physically is an impossibility to exist. That is and has been the crux of my arguement against SRT.

 

Double talk. Did the H&K atomic clocks aboard the aircraft when compared to earths monitor clocks find the earth clocks display less time? Nope.

Your assumption that a muon sees itself always live 2.2us is shear wishful thinking. Energy is involved in these transitions and energy can (and does) alter processes. You (and Yuriy) have absolutely no basis to assume the muon still records 2.2us.

Sorry you are still in left field.

This issue is precisely comperable to accelerated transmutation of radioactive by-products by applications of energy to the waste.

Further more what happened to spatial contraction? So you not claim that the muon sees less distance and hence would expect to arrive in 2.2us?

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I thought you two were talking about proof?
Geistkiesel

 

Dear superL,
Read and remember forever what MacM just proclaimed:

And especially the following DECLARATION:

(Notice: he said that just after you gave as I clear hint that even observation of a single muon, created in upper layer of atmosphere, on the surface of Earth is a prove of “reciprocity”!)

To through this – “the crux of my arguement against SRT” - another dead body from our Forum forever, let me consider situation in the details.

1. We know for sure that muons are born at collisions of the cosmic particles – like protons fron a Sun – with nuclei of our atmosphere (somewhere on the height 20 km) in result of which the n pions appear and because of their very short life-time (of range of picoseconds) pions decay giving a fast moving muons. Namely that muons we see on Earth as the muonic cosmic reys.
2. We know for sure that muon’s proper life-time is about 2.2 microsecond. (It was measured in Labs tousend times and is exactly matching to theoretical value 2.198 microsecond that is delivered by the SRT-covariant theory of the Weak Interactions!)
3. Even if muon had velocity c = 300000 km/sec for 2.2microsec it would pass the distance S = 660 m! So, there is no chance for us in our Labs to see muons that are born in point 20km above surface of Earth … without fact predicted by SRT – the time dilation for a moving body! Therefore, the observer in Lab being asked: “ Why you see muons?” absolutely confident answers: “Because rapidly moving muon is experiencing time dilation and his 2.2 microseconds of entire his life become many hundred milliseconds by my clocks”. So, the observation of cosmic muons on the surface of Earth is a direct proof of the reality of the time dilation phenomenon.
4. And here comes the crankiest of our Forum – MacM – and screams: “Hold on, hold on! This is proof only of “one sided” time-dilation! But I need the proof of “the fact that either clock can claim the jposition of rest and it is the other clock that becomes dilated”! No reciprocity here, no reciprocity! It has never once been shown to exist and physically is an impossibility to exist. That is and has been the crux of my arguement against SRT”!
5. The problem is that it is and that MacM’s beloved “reciprocity” of the time-dilation phenomena was proven in Labs … millions and millions times! And he heard about that many times, as all we did. The difference is that we listen and believe to scientists even if not quite understand the details, but MacM neither understands, nor believes…
And what proofs I have in mind are … the collisions of muons (and many of other non-stable elementary particles!) in our powerful accelerators – colliders!
6. Indeed, in many accelerators the unstable particles, particularly muons, generated previously in special devices by the nions’ decays, are collected, accumulated and accelerated up to velocities very close to c. During this process muons are passing hundreds and even thousands kilometers before they will be bring in collision with each other. Why we do that? Because in result of these collisions we get a lot of new elementary particles, some of which is very tough to get in another way! We like, we have to and we want to study the new particles!
Particularly, right now CERN builds a huge muon-muon collider … to get the famous Higgs bozons!
7. And knowing all these facts, let us ask one of collided muon: “Why you see your partner by collision, if he long ago should be dead due to shortness of his life-time?” This muon (if he could speak!) will answer to you with a grate confidence: “Because rapidly moving muon is experiencing time dilation and his 2.2 microseconds of entire his life become many hundred milliseconds by my clocks”. After you will get this answer all what you should do is …to ask the same question … the second muon. You will get exactly the same answer: “Because rapidly moving muon is experiencing time dilation and his 2.2 microseconds of entire his life become many hundred milliseconds by my clocks”! And this is the proof of reciprocity of the time-dilation phenomena in Nature billion times proven in our Laboratoties!
But to apprehend that, the one, even having the education of the 1st contour plumber, should have some ability to … think logically!

 

A long but irrelevant diatribe. Once again rembember forever this response Your assertions of it having been proven billions of times in our labs isn't only grossly false it hasn't proven anything even once. You really do seem to have a mental block on reality.

I have acknowledged the fact that muons survive longer than anticipated under certain conditions but there is nothing in that which proves time dilation. You are dealing with processes and processes change under various energy conditions. Add to that the fact that there is no evidence that the muon sees the earth lab clock mutually dilated. That is ludricrus on the surface.

If the muon thought (and they don't think BTW) it survived 2.2us and arrived to find the earth clock said it took 10us it wouldn't think the earth clock ran SLOW, it thinks the earth clock ran FAST.

Note that is what the evidence shows and it contridicts SRT.

See how screwed up you are.

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The muons life time is 2,2us in a frame where it is at rest?
Then how can it possibly travel the distance to earths surface without seeing earths clocks run fast?

 

fo3,
And why you think that muon should see earth clocks ranning faster?

 

What you don't read my posts.? Maybe you should then you could get out of this losing rut you are in.

If the muon records 2.2us and the earth clock says it survived 10us then the muon must see the earth clock as accelerated not dilated as you claim. You jdon't even think through your own solutions. You seem to think you can just speak and make everything OK. Some people actually think about what you claim and when they do they see you not only don't have the answer you are giving answers that are completely opposite what you claim.

Bizzar. :bugeye:

 

What you don't read my posts.? Maybe you should then you could get out of this losing rut you are in.

If the muon records 2.2us and the earth clock says it survived 10us, then the muon must see the earth clock as accelerated not dilated as you claim. You don't even think through your own solutions. You seem to think you can just speak and make everything OK. Some people actually think about what you claim and when they do they see you not only don't have the answer you are giving answers that are completely opposite what you claim.

Bizzar. :bugeye:


Superluminal,

You shouldn't be so damn quick to jump on Yuriy's bandwagon. "Master" indeed, you just idolized a fool. That is making you appear as a fool. Think for yourself at least that way you have nobody to blame but yourself.

 

Yuriy, you are being ignorant, it is not logical. It is logical that it seems something is wrong with SRT because of the reason MacM stated. But it is NOT wrong.
MacM, have you ever even read a solution/explanation to the twin-paradox, because this is what your objection to SRT is.

 

Gentlemen,

Your analysis of a simple logical proposition is astoundingly, mind numbingly flawed, even ignoring SRT.

In the muons (Fred's) frame it takes 2.2us, then POOF, gone. Same for his friend (Barney).

They will both be shot toward each other at a speed and from a distance that takes 100ms to cover, such that they will collide just prior to decay. They will collide. This is done routinely in accelerators. We at least know one sided dilation works. Right?

Fred and barney know how long they will live and the distance that must be covered, and are skeptical. Bang! Fire!

From fred's perspective, he will live 2.1us before ramming Barney. He knows Barney can only live, at most, 2.2us in his own frame. If he watches Barney's clock, what must he see? He must see barney's clock ticking very slow lest Barney evaporate before collision.

Substitute Barney for Fred and you get the same result.

MAcM, I have been called a fool now enough times by you and G and others, that I feel safe saying that you and your bretheren are not very bright. Sorry for your condition.

 

I am beginning to understand that.

 

In earths frame, it takes some time for the muon to reach earths surface. I don't know the exact time, but lets say it is 100us.
In the muons frame, it takes 2us for it to reach earths surface.
At the time the muon is in the upper layer of earths atmosphere, both clocks read 0.
When it reaches earth, its clock shows no more than 2us, but earths clock shows 100us.
So it seems to me that during its flight the muon must see earths clock go from 0 to 100us.

 

1. The muon sees the Earth clock run slower.
2. The distance the Muon travels according to the Muon is contracted.
3. You have to take into account the Relativity of Simultaneity.

When you say that both clocks read zero when the muon is in the upper atmosphere, you must say according to which clock. If the clocks both read zero at that point according to the Earth clock, they will not do so according to the Muon's clock.

From the Muon's perpective, while its clock goes from 0 to 2us, the Earth clock goes from a reading of 99.96us to 100us

 

thought so.. should've tried to do that before posting.