On Nothing in a void.

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Xelasnave.1947, Dec 22, 2016.

  1. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    And here's me being confused about what you might think me responding with: "there is no one system we should use", could possibly mean.
    Well, I certainly can count myself as someone who doesn't know that.

    What I know instead is that there are lots of different kinds, not just one. Binary logic is just one kind, but there's trinary logic, and I guess you can say there's a logic of quaternions which is four dimensional. But why stop at 4?
    What is this "second sense"? Are you saying there is logic in a first sense, second, third, and so on? Not a very convincing argument for your "one and only one" claim, is it?
    How do you know what they are? And if they aren't significant, why can you enrol in university courses that teach formal logic?
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
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  3. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

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    Nothing of substance here and nothing I would need to repeat myself for. Read again what I already said if there's something you don't understand.
    EB
     
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  5. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

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    That only relates to how the brain can compute an operational model of the world for us to survive in it.
    Very interesting. Thanks for the run-down.
    That's all irrelevant to the question of how matter can give rise to subjective experience.
    EB
     
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Ping!
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    No, that is the wrong way around. All matter undergoes a subjective experience during the quantum function of cause and effect. Some complex organization of matter has an evolved sentient subjective experience of these threshold functions.

    A brainless slime-mold already has the ability to learn and memorize subjective physical experiences, such as taking an action in anticipation of a timed event.
    http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-slime-mold-brain-learning-20160426-story.html
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
  9. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

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    ???
    You don't seem to realise that's a completely unfounded claim!
    I can look at people around me. They all look somewhat more intelligent and capable than lifeless matter. And yet, I certainly wouldn't claim I know these people have subjective experience at all. I just don't know. So, lifeless matter?!
    I grant you that's possibility but you should learn the distinction between claiming something as a possibility and claiming it's a fact and this without justification whatsoever.
    So, I guess there's just some massive difference between our respective understandings of the notion of knowledge. You seem to believe you know things. Good for you. Me, I don't believe I do and and don't believe you do either.
    Nothing to do with subjective experience.
    You don't seem to have any understanding of the notion of subjective experience.
    Look up "qualia".
    EB
     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    If you had read the link I provided you would have seen that a slime do form qualia.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

    From the article I linked;
    http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-slime-mold-brain-learning-20160426-story.html

    Try to connect the dots. It is clear that the slime-mold formed qualia what "it was to taste a specific flavor" such as pleasant flavors and bitter flavors.
     
  11. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    5,711
    Aristotle, via Stanford:

    --https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-logic/
     
  12. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

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    You have no evidence of this. It may well be the case that mould and slime experience qualia just at it may be the case that God exists or that we all have magical power if only we knew how to use them.
    See what Schrôdinger says:
    This is a rather well understood difficulty but you seem not to get it. Just looking at something won't give you evidence that this something experiences qualia. You would need to be the thing itself to see for yourself if you did. I'm not saying qualia are not physical, only that we don't know that they are and certainly how matter could give rise to qualia.
    Your slime doesn't do anything that bigger animals don't do and we don't know that any of these other animals experience qualia, although they may.
    Just looking at yourself in the mirror, you couldn't tell you're experiencing qualia.
    From you insistence, I can only infer that you don't and probably can't understand the concept of quale.
    Sorry, links have their own limitations. Your link here certainly does:
    This shows you just don't understand the concept of qualia. How would you know something tastes anything to a slime. Do you know that it feels something for the Moon to orbit the Earth?
    You could also try to look up the notion of p-zombie. P-zombies is the notion of human beings bereft of qualia. Things looking exactly like normal human beings but not experiencing qualia. Such things would still insist they experience qualia.
    The existence of qualia is something you can only assess from the private perspective of your subjective experience. You can decide for yourself whether you experience qualia but you can't assess whether some other thing, a thing you are not, is experiencing qualia, whether it be a human being, God or just slime, or indeed the Moon.
    EB
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Perception of brightness is a qualia. Perception of time is a qualia. When an organism adaptively responds to different states of its environment it possesses the ability to process qualia.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  14. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

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    Sorry, if you can't explain yourself, there isn't much to talk about.
    I would be the first to admit the limitations of Aristotle's method of logic, but I believe that it's at least correct, unlike the propositional logic developed from the work of Frege and Russell.
    Now, you could try to provide examples of how syllogistic logic is not true of the logical reasoning human beings do.
    Obviously, logic doesn't cover all forms or reasoning. We can reason by comparison for example, but that's not logical.
    See the basic distinctions Wiki provides:
    EB
     
  15. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

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    No. This is just absurd. We certainly don't know that. If we did, do you think people would have even invented the concept of qualia?!
    Why would an adaptive response be even essential here? What's the difference between the Moon orbiting the Earth and a slime moving along a bridge?
    EB
     
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    The slime mold knows there is food on the orher side.....

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  17. Speakpigeon Registered Senior Member

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    Is that all you can do?! Make vacuous claims?
    I can make up claims, too. The Moon knows it is orbiting the Earth!!! Water knows where to go to find the sink hole!!!
    See?
    I watched the videos on your fungus. It's just really, really obvious they go blindly. It's only once all alternative paths are covered that the shortest one is reinforced, and not surprisingly at all. Water can do the same trick.
    Just pathetic.
    Bye.
    EB
     
  18. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    I got into a fight with gravity once...

    Call me a pussy but I'm not looking for a rematch.
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Yep, "movement in the direction of greatest satisfaction". It is a universal imperative for both sentient and non-sentient objects.
     
  20. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    5,711
    Qualia are supposed to be a concept of subjective experience.

    According to Stanford:
    In other words, we can consider that qualia are symbolic, some kind of variable in a logical system (or rational system if you prefer). So does a slime mould subjectively experience its world, or what?

    But you said it's the only logic there is. Perhaps you should admit that.
     
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    According to the researchers it does. Hameroff proposes that microtubules themselves have a form of sentience as used in the cilia of the single celled Paramecium.
    https://www.livescience.com/55178-paramecium.html
     
  22. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    Back on topic. Nothing in a void is a tautology, a void in boundary logic is a "space" with no structure. There is no notion of difference, or a distance between two different points, etc. There is no concept of number or order, there is nothing except a space that looks the same everywhere. '

    According to Boundary Logic (which is not only a valid formal logic, it has practical applications because of its economy with symbols), a void with a boundary is 'Boolean equivalent' to a true state. It says it's true that a boundary can identify a false state, you are allowed a finite chunk of structureless nothing.

    Symbolically I can say the set of all true statements T, and the set of all false statements F, have an empty intersection { } = ∅. BL says that { } is the state of all elements of T, and the space (character) between the brackets is the state of all elements of F.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  23. river

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    11,058
    But WITHIN the void there is , there are , no objects . In the absolute . The definition from the first paragraph lacks this inclusion of objects .

    arfa brane you are only looking at a void in the mathematical model . Not from from absence of any physical thing .
     

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