On language: on controlling and being controlled

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Mephura, Jul 16, 2003.

  1. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Well, for the sake of pointless tenacity I'll pursue it.

    Okay if you're really agnostic (epistemology) then technically your ass is a myth right? Further, to me it is definately a myth. I'd grant you 'legend' but I'm out of the loop these days.

    Anyone?

    Is gendy's ass legendary in some capacity?

    I'm most curious.

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    I'm suppose it's better that it remain a mystery.

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    Last edited: Sep 14, 2003
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  3. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    Tis Sunday my lords...

    Firstly, let’s clear up a little something. We're not 'ultra-developed' anything so scratch that. I’m not some kind of babied philosopher up in my tower thinking we’re some kind of supermen. If anything, we’re incredibly odd and I’ve spent a good 2 years wondering what it is that distinguishes humans to make them the curious little cretins that they are. Is it love? No. Compassion or reason? No. Homosexuality? Rape? Murder? Nope.
    Language is promising. That being said……………..let’s roll…………


    That is the lynchpin in all this. With no sheme to ‘clothe’ it, its neither. No illusions. No conscious. Nothing. The only way for me to think I am anything, in that there’s a ‘me’ apart from my medium I’m going to need some platform to think it in, subjective or not.

    And you cannot simply scapegoat and chalk up this platform to mere thought.

    I’m sure a gazelle thinks about the dangers of being out on the veldt all alone, a capuchin thinks about his next meal to some extent. But the bone of contention here is the thinking of self, something our evolutionary companions don’t think about.
    With no codified system, the gaps go on being gaps.

    You’re tangling up spiritual with gratification. Ever seen a sloth take a dump? There’s not an actor on earth that can mimic the gratified look of sheer pleasure on a sloth’s face shitting his food pellets. I’m sure there are torrents of opioids and endorphins storming through his bloodstream while he’s dumping.
    That is satisfaction, gratification, fulfillment, and delight in the immediate and there are is no channeled thought, insight, or self reflection involved.

    That’s what we do.

    And I’m glad to see that you’ve done some of my work for me- putting spirituality to a sliding scale. But why would spiritualism be the "simplistic notion"? This implies that there are higher levels unattainable to our species, beyond that of spiritualism.

    Barring science fiction’s nasty habits of painting a world years in the future where man is One Mind transcendent from his body (which is bullshatta), can you not see that ‘spirituality’ is by far the more complex? If we’re to have grading scales, then biology is its starting point. Yes? It’s the easiest thing in the world to hyperbolize ecstacy- mescaline, mushrooms, mescal, locoweed, poppy seeds- all the ingredients are there for a cheap chemical enlightenment. Snap. Pronto. You’re there. And we’re not the only ones that do it- animals like to get high too.

    What I want you and you and you and you and your brother too to see is this:
    the psychedelic high is easy to grapple with because there at least you know where it comes from. It’s the aftermath of psycho-active compounds up to their mischief and you're not fucked because you know how to cure it, if nothing else. Its tangible.

    The spiritual high is not as easy because its high is rooted in abstracts, it’s the aftermath of slippery ghosts (ever seen love? Hate? Justice?) up to their mischief and there we are fucked because we don’t know how to cure it. Its fuel sparked a raging fire long ago that's now bloody untamable.
    This is what I’ve been saying from the beginning.
    This is why I don’t buy into “spiritual monkeys”.

    Now here’s what turned me on:
    Agree me this: there are two types of solutions to biology- Instinct and intelligence.

    You asked if a thinking being needed language. We’ll see……

    Given a larvae, it boggles the mind to see that a maggot can figure out all the steps of its life cycle on its own, from pupae to chrysalis. Given a horsefly its tempting to think that by laying its eggs on the shoulder or legs of a horse the little fly knew that the horse would be licking its legs or shoulders so that it brilliantly calculated how to have its eggs end up in the stomach of the poor horse.
    However, this is not thinking. It is acting perfected to the tune of millions of years.

    If we could go to our labs today and put millions of mutant horses with no legs out on the market, the horsefly would be fucked.
    If we could go to our labs today and put millions of mutant plants different than those native to that little slug of yours, Wes, he too would be fucked. Insight would prove otherwise and they don’t have it.

    I’m seeing this- if we could magically tune in to the sound of the ages you’d hear a clear distinction with the animal’s engine and ours. Their's goes something like clack clack clack tick tack tick, as if the muffler is dangling and the engine is in need of oil yet keeps going anyway.
    Ours is akin to the hum of a perpetual machine, if that kind of machine were possible. Like a timeless fridge buzzing in the background. What keeps it from clacking and ticking mindlessly for ages? Thinking. What keeps it running smoothly? Language. How did it start? Language.

    A somnambulist goes through the motions, acting out his humanity without consciously doing so. So what can consciousness be other than that rash word 'myth' I used that does not sit well with Wesmorris?

    A hesitation in the univerazal “buzz” (refer to the engine metaphor) that gives way to choice, maybe? Yes. A property that once that sleepwalker wakes up and realizes he’s naked and walking outside allows him to hesitate and make a choice in his medium.

    And so instinct gives way to acting. Animals do little else than automatic association. They go on forever click clack tacking mindlessly.
    Intellect gives way to thought and choice. Consciousness is not a separate entity. It’s the byproduct of having these two things in intellect mingling with each other.

    This is a bit long so I'll cut it .......
     
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  5. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    Wes:
    Only becuase its neither in your hands at this moment throbbing on your sticky wet palms or bouncing on your face.

    You can't spell legend with out gendanken.
    Of course. Lest I turn out to be some kind of fatted cow looking like Fafnir.

    Speaking of myths......

    Why do I call 'the self' a myth of sorts? In Eucleid geometry, given two separate angles all you have is two separate angles.
    Yes?
    Both are 60 degrees respectively. Alone they’re only that- straight lines to some degree between pi or 2pi in a full circle.

    But put them together, and there pops up something else as a byproduct. Another angle, exactly 60 degrees as the others. Not only that but there’s something else – a triangle.
    Does that third angle exist? Or is it just the illusion of seeing the two put together?
    I would say the former.
     
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  7. guthrie paradox generator Registered Senior Member

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    Well, one suggesiton about what makes us so different, is what one bloke labelled "timebinding", ie we can write down and transmit large amounts of info to our progeny. Sure, other animals teach their young some things, but we take it to an extreme, our children can harldy fend for themselves and have a prolonged juvenile period compared to a lot of others. We have both the capacity and the ability to build upon each preceding generation, whereas somehow all the other animals either cant, or do so really slowly.
     
  8. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    Guthrie:
    True enough. Its neoteny prolonged to the absurd. The human is a landscape stretched a mile wide, and a chimp in his second year is 20 something compared with his human counterpart. Toddlerism is insane- but apparently has gotten us many things and fast evolution wise.

    "Timebinding". I like it. Languange is but a storage devise. Nohing less. Little more.
     
  9. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Gendy you seem to use the term language for what I would call 'conceptualization'. I'm still thinking about it.

    Further, you seem to view the relationship of language to consciousness as causal whereby I'd swear I've illustrated exactly why that's not true. I could have sworn would have seen what I said, so again, I'm stepping back to consider where I misunderstood and how I might formulate a post that could clarify my meaning. I feel I already have, and wonder if you glossed over some of it in your haste, or if I didn't communicate clearly, or if I just don't understand what I think I understand or if we just disagree or if it's just semantics.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2003
  10. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    Wes:
    If anything, you seem to be the lax one around here grinding spirituality/religion down to simply an answer to the 'proverbial WTF' ......and then resorting to calling it "bullshit'.
    I do not.

    Think of an iceberg. Consciousness is the 10% peeking out of the water. Lanuage and thought is the leviathan base below waters.
    Or by chance stepping back to tidy up your ribbons and forgetting my box all together?

    Haste? That big ass post.................in my haste?

    It seems to me that one) its all a matter of decorating your box and seeing which of my ribbons go with your wrapping paper and
    two) a hundred years from now......scratch that, about a year from now no one is going to give a rats ass what we're saying here so in essence all of this is pigshit.

    Wes:
    I would agree here.

    Extension in time and space by means of language.

    But this assumes that you're in control. And that is where you and I break off. We are not in controll. Think of a ball rolling in 2 dimensianal space. If you are the ball, then you would never know that you've been nudged off track and veering to the left. To you, in this 'highway' of yours, you are seemingly still going straight. Only a complete outsider could see that you are off course and veerring to the left.

    Follow?

    As in?

    *EDIT: The problem or 'stumbling block' may be that you see the iceberg the other way around- the 10% peeking out of the water being conceptualization or language, yes?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2003
  11. guthrie paradox generator Registered Senior Member

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    "quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    While at the same time language shapes behavior and thought patterns, it also works as a sort of "cultural hard-drive" in a knowledge repository kind of way. It can be thought of a roadsigns on the conceptual highway of the mind (in the sense that your subjective (a somewhat redundant term I suppose) conceptual relationships uses language as 'conceptual placeholders' ......
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I would agree here.
    "

    Well, I would agree as well. But if I say "cat" to you, what comes up in your mind? do you think of the cat that scratched you when you were young, leaving you afraid of them for years, or the nice moggy you had? OOps, maybe that isnt the right example. nevertheless, up to a point, changing the roadsigns somehwat might change the direction we are going in, so at this point I reveal myself as a closet General semanticist. Or at least someone interested in it and who uses bits of it in daily life, thats where the timebinding idea came from.
    www.general-semantics.org

    "Think of an iceberg. Consciousness is the 10% peeking out of the water. Lanuage and thought is the leviathan base below waters."

    well, I would say more that the iceberg is thought etc, but thought not actually in language, more that consciousness is teh spotlight of light travelling across your mind, and in that light you can create language to use, but outside the light, your thoughts are less based on language per se, more complex, forms and feelings etc. Or thats how I think I think anyway.
     
  12. thefountainhed Fully Realized Valued Senior Member

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    I think I need to understand the context people are using "language"...
     
  13. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    Fountainhed:
    Dangit.........Occam's razor:

    Language: smoke and mirrors. A storage bin to prolong the real and unreal. A cauldron of abstracts. Fertile ground for spiritual nonsense. A conduit. The thing that has men thinking there's a soul.

    and I do believe I've scared Wesmorris away. Fucking pity.
     
  14. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Hehe... no, I'm not scared, just taking a break. I've been actually working at work and trying to help the wifey with the kiddos. On top of that I've had some significant connection issues from home which I believe I've just resolved.

    I do think though that we're going in circles a bit, but I'll address your posts as i find time.

    As I've attempted to post this message, I've realized that i think my connection issues are still present. FUCK. Annoying to pay 50 bucks a month for a freakin connection that has decided to be an intermitent piece of shit. ARgh.

    EDIT:

    have been fighting my connection for two hours. fuck.

    regardless... Gendy, consciousness is the doorway to language, but it doesn't work unless the storage facility (the brain) is able to regurgitate time. If as in the case of a gnat, time is basically 'now' and there is no remote possibility (due to lack of equipment) that the gnat can use language or store its would-be abstraction. (I lost a bunch of good shit about other animalz and just here due to a fucked edit so to summarize

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    Higher animals have more sophisticated ability to store their experience (time as it appears to them). The more sophosticated experience requires a means of organization and place for storage. Go "up" the scale intellect amongst species and you'll find a more and more impressive ability to recall the subjective ordeal. I think where primates have changed the game is a new type of brain that allows for long term memory as as such, culture, language and more fundamentally - the abilty to conceptualize.

    In one of my posts I talked about my take on your take of ego and mentioned that there are probably trancendental points of the evolution of brains (i said consciousness). I believe the trancendental point in question, in the context I just established is when short term and long term memory are integrated. This allows for reflection of the current environment in terms of historical data. Hmm, maybe it's just that there is a minimum integration of these two types of memory and their complexity that allows the formation of ego as we were speaking about before. Oh yeah. It's the long term memory that is arranged via the subjective geometry as in that other thread. Ah, I see, hehe. Eh, it's too long to explain. Something about thinking about a stupid human and how that scale leads down to other species (without too much of a gap really considering the scope of consciousness) and how consciousness gets phat when it's allowed to loop in time. Anyway.

    So to summarize: I think language is the direct result of the ability to conceptualize. The ability to conceptualize exists as a resultant of the evolutionary branch that allow sapien types to evolve a complicted brain. That brain is able to 'remember' as such, concepts provide a relationship tool for these memories. Afterall, you need a filing system. It just so happens that there are properties of the abstract dimension (like basic logic) that interact with conceptual relationships such that there maintains a continuity in conceptual interconnectedness (which EDIT: if becomes discontinuous manifests itself as insanity of some sort). If the concepts are not properly interconnected, problems arise while attempting to satisfy the prime directive (survival) because memory fails as the file system is broken. Now, realize that every file system is completely customized by the instance of the brain in question (see subjective geometry). Again, the file system consists of subjectively geometrical conceptual relationships as discerned by the perspective in question as an integral from initial conceptual inception (which gets rolling as a baby) to the present time.

    Language tends to clump concepts around it in a nodal fashion, with words acting as a sort of node.

    Without language, the conceptualization still happens, but the nodes are much less defined, more like topological rises, plateous of loosely defined concepts like the equivalent of "rock" or whatever.

    See what I mean?

    I'm sure what I'm saying is correct in principal and realize it's quite general and I use language a litte wierdly.. but... eh, maybe I'm as looney as the next idiot, but I'm more than convinced I'm right in terms of the relationships of language to concept to consciousness and the related jive.

    The only way I could be convinced otherwise is if I could comprehend a counter argument in similar terms. Otherwise, I'm hopeless I guess.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2003
  15. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    /That is the lynchpin in all this. With no sheme to ‘clothe’ it, its neither. No illusions. No conscious. Nothing. The only way for me to think I am anything, in that there’s a ‘me’ apart from my medium I’m going to need some platform to think it in, subjective or not.

    I think that's just wrong. As I explained previously (to which I thought you agreed but must have been mistaken) there would be no language without consciousness, which as we agreed to before, exists within all living creatures to an extent. It doesn't take much to be 'aware' in terms of living beings. Every one seems equiped with an input such that it senses the outside world and responds to stimulus in an self-sustained way. (I realized some computer programs exhibit similar behavior, but that's a different thread and I don't think they're alive). Things that are alive have been 'touched' by the spark of life. I think this spark is basically natures subjective entry portal to the abstract dimension (subjective implemented, but having properties independent of the implementation, e.g. logic is a universal concept and as such a property of abstract space), but that's also another thread.

    /And you cannot simply scapegoat and chalk up this platform to mere thought.

    "scapegoat"? "mere thought"?

    Apalling.

    /I’m sure a gazelle thinks about the dangers of being out on the veldt all alone, a capuchin thinks about his next meal to some extent. But the bone of contention here is the thinking of self, something our evolutionary companions don’t think about.
    With no codified system, the gaps go on being gaps.

    Bah. Your thinking is good but your infatuation with language has you looking at the creature in question backwards from my perspective. You seem to lend language more conceptual weight than I do, which makes me ponder semantic issues. Ah yes, your definition is far more inclusive than I think it should be. IMO, language is not smoke and mirrors - concepts are. Language is a tool to allow a great skill of sharply organizing these concepts (concepts being a results of the abstraction of experience into a conceptual matrix of sorts). This will make it difficult for us to properly communicate. I'm not sure how to come to agree on the proper definition, but mine distinquishes the concepts as I understand them so it's difficult for me to be flexible on it - as some part of me feels that if I am by tenuous comprehension of the topics will crumble.

    /You’re tangling up spiritual with gratification. Ever seen a sloth take a dump? There’s not an actor on earth that can mimic the gratified look of sheer pleasure on a sloth’s face shitting his food pellets. I’m sure there are torrents of opioids and endorphins storming through his bloodstream while he’s dumping.

    No you're wrong Gendy. I'm allowing for the possibility that sometimes when that Sloth is shitting like that - the motherfucker sees god (so to speak). Further, maybe now that you mention it - how valid is your assertion if people get gratified and see it as the love of jesus? People mix shit up like that for real all the time and to them, that's what it is. Sheeit. Further, as I asserted before I thought the idea of sprituality as "the space between the concepts and their relationships" or "the feeling of wanting to know that which cannot be" was a pretty sharp insight on spirituality. Why would you think that I relagated it to nothingness? It is not nothingness but the sense that answers lurk in the nothingness... generally it is accompanied by fear (since most people are ill-equipped to delve in and maintain conceptual continuity).

    /And I’m glad to see that you’ve done some of my work for me- putting spirituality to a sliding scale. But why would spiritualism be the "simplistic notion"? This implies that there are higher levels unattainable to our species, beyond that of spiritualism.

    Yes, I have extrapolated the scale. Surely you are capable of understanding why? Surely you think it's at least possible (I view it as probable) that human comprehension is incredibly simplistic on the scale of intellect. If you would entertain that notion, you might see how 'spiritualism' might evolve into something higher that what we think of as spiritualism. As a matter of fact I'm sure it's inevitable. Human cognition is generally pretty pathetic (myself not withstanding).

    /Barring science fiction’s nasty habits of painting a world years in the future where man is One Mind transcendent from his body (which is bullshatta), can you not see that ‘spirituality’ is by far the more complex?

    You simply missed my context I think.

    /If we’re to have grading scales, then biology is its starting point. Yes? It’s the easiest thing in the world to hyperbolize ecstacy- mescaline, mushrooms, mescal, locoweed, poppy seeds- all the ingredients are there for a cheap chemical enlightenment. Snap. Pronto. You’re there. And we’re not the only ones that do it- animals like to get high too.

    Sure, drugs can be great but I don't really see the relevance. I'm not grading scales, I'm merely etrapolating a curve that I see and pointing out that I think there are some cool features to it. After you said "I'm not elevating humans to the bla bla" or whatever, I thought sure you'd understand what I meant.

    /What I want you and you and you and you and your brother too to see is this:
    /the psychedelic high is easy to grapple with because there at least you know where it comes from. It’s the aftermath of psycho-active compounds up to their mischief and you're not fucked because you know how to cure it, if nothing else. Its tangible.

    /The spiritual high is not as easy because its high is rooted in abstracts,

    Yes and no. All living matter asbstracts, it's just that most of them don't have much storage space for their experience. For the gnat there is very little "space between concepts" so sprititually is utterly simplistic and utterly pervasive (if the thought could arise) and utterly devoid (as there is little to no 'thought' due to lack of equipment.

    /it’s the aftermath of slippery ghosts (ever seen love? Hate? Justice?) up to their mischief and there we are fucked because we don’t know how to cure it.

    I just think you're hogging the glory for the species because it's all you really relate to.

    /Its fuel sparked a raging fire long ago that's now bloody untamable.
    /This is what I’ve been saying from the beginning.

    I get it, I just think you're disorganized. I think you have a lot of bits and pieces correct, but that you haven't fully fused them into a bigger picture. At least I don't get the sense that you have, or maybe I just can't see past my own because I'm so invested and convinced of them. Regardless I mean no offense, I'm just calling it as I see it. I'm sure you'll correct me.

    /This is why I don’t buy into “spiritual monkeys”.

    Maybe Gendy, we've surpassed the level of 'sprituality' in monkeys to such a degree that you simply don't see it there. I do. I think it's pretty simple, but in terms of the model I'm presenting, that makes perfect sense as the conceptual matrix (abstracted via subjective experience) allowed by their brains is significantly simpler than humans. Now I might agree with you that the sense of spirituality is greatly enhanced by language because as I noted before, language provides distinct nodes for conceptual relationships. As such, the 'space between' becomes questioned in a far more specific manner and the effect of the strange feeling of duality or spirituality or whatever is amplified by the culturally propagated social phenomenon of language (which maybe be a good indicator as to having reached a transcendental phase on the scale of intellect).

    /Agree me this: there are two types of solutions to biology- Instinct and intelligence.

    Intelligence evolved of instinct. It's not two segragate veins of solution, one is stacked upon the other in a manner that is thus far inseparable.

    /Given a larvae, it boggles the mind to see that a maggot can figure out all the steps of its life cycle on its own, from pupae to chrysalis. Given a horsefly its tempting to think that by laying its eggs on the shoulder or legs of a horse the little fly knew that the horse would be licking its legs or shoulders so that it brilliantly calculated how to have its eggs end up in the stomach of the poor horse.

    You seem to completely ignore that the horse seems to have a lot more 'will' or available conscious options that the horsefly. I horse is in posession of emotions, which you seem to ignore. I believe that a horse is on that sliding scale and he has little pretties of his own. Maybe his oats have an imaginary purple tinge when he is in just the right mood. Now I'm not completely sure a horse has the ability to 'imagine' in the sense that he may not have the brain function to project imagery into his awareness, but he MAY.. in a very simplistic sense that might look like instinct to a higher intellect.

    /However, this is not thinking. It is acting perfected to the tune of millions of years.

    But if our horse thinks "hey, maybe I'll mess with that other horse over there for a while" (without the benefit of language), is that not 'thinking'? What about when animals have fun? It's just a mechanism? What about a sad puppy? You would steal his feeling to save your theory huh? Wow, you are cruel. Hehe.. teasing. (and we haven't even TOUCHED on emotions role in all of this, which by the way I have described nicely (along with excellent input from allah) in that thread I referenced before 'love and hate').

    /Thinking. What keeps it running smoothly? Language. How did it start? Language.

    Why? How could I have "thought" to have language if I couldn't think? Ack! You must be capable of conceptualization to have language to begin with. Language had to be created. Technically "language" doesn't exist. It's merely a way for you to look at 'languages'. Gruntspeak for instance. Gruntspeak allowed humans to grunt what they wanted like apes. That's "a language" and at the time you was also what you would retrospectively consider "the whole of language" since there were none really besides 'uhgh' at the associated party noises. From that a particular language evolved... it happened again and again and again, because it's indicative of the transcendental phase of concsiousness as previously discussed. It allows for improved survival skills. It improves definition of conceptual nodes. It is inherent as a result of cognition and feeds back into the ability for cognition to improve... but cognition must have necessarily preceded it in order to coax it from the nothingness of conceptual blobs that exists before language could shapen them up.

    *takes a long breath*

    and release.

    /A somnambulist goes through the motions, acting out his humanity without consciously doing so. So what can consciousness be other than that rash word 'myth' I used that does not sit well with Wesmorris?

    It sits fine I guess I just think you're wrong as I've explained. You're right about a lot of things too. Like now you're using 'consciously doing' so in a way that makes no sense. Are you consciously aware of your breathing? How about your digestion? You have a POV so you are conscious. A POV directly implies a 'degree of awareness' or consciousness. Without one, there would be no POV, but a rock or molecular equivalent. Something not alive. Would you say that a fly has no POV?

    /A hesitation in the univerazal “buzz” (refer to the engine metaphor) that gives way to choice, maybe? Yes. A property that once that sleepwalker wakes up and realizes he’s naked and walking outside allows him to hesitate and make a choice in his medium.

    /And so instinct gives way to acting. Animals do little else than automatic association. They go on forever click clack tacking mindlessly.

    How could you say that? You must not have a perception that I have or I am making stuff up... but animals are playful, emotional beings... on a very simple level. Your belittlement of them in that capacity seems ridiculous to me. You need to go watch the monkeys at the zoo or something and look into their eyes and think about this that you've said when one of them is laughing at you after just having flung his shit on you.

    /Intellect gives way to thought and choice. Consciousness is not a separate entity. It’s the byproduct of having these two things in intellect mingling with each other.

    Nope. I think I've illustrated why. For some reason though - I doubt you think I have!

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    /This is a bit long so I'll cut it .......

    that WAS pretty long, but I expected more interaction to be honest. Actually, I'm somewhat dissapointed that you seem to gloss over a lot of what I say and pull out like two lines from a post. If the rest is so unimpressive, please at least illustrate why, so that I can understand your thinking. it leaves me with the impression that you've just glossed over my words in a hurry to justify your own, which doesn't seem like a productive means of debate. Rather, it makes me think you didn't put any thought at all to what I've said (besides the lil bit you quote). Surely the rest of my words carry enough meaning to warrent attention. Further, I see it as shortcutting our communicative endeavor as that when you shortcut the post, I don't know if I got anything across to you at all.

    Eh, I just want to maximize the acheivement in our efforts, pardon if that was uncalled for.
     
  16. spookz Banned Banned

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    my poor brother wes
    forever the optimist. always giving others the benefit of the doubt. wake up
     
  17. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

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    Spooky poodle:
    Look you magled little weazel........get the fuck off my property or I'll have you in chains. Churl.



    That being said..........
     
  18. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    think of that 'nothingness as the space surrounding the circles in Venn diagram. There is possibilty withing but it is separated loomingly and most ominously by the infinity of alternate possibilities in the undefined space surrounding the circles. to me, that is the essence of spiritualism.... the absolutely awe inspiring realization that there are an apparent infinity things beyond comprehension... at least, that's where it starts.
     
  19. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    get off me beeyatch.

    get your cynicism out of my bung.

    oh, and my brother, how could you condescend to belittle my optimism? surely you jest!

    hehe, you're just instigating? never bored of the flamage eh?

    please, elaborate.

    I'd certainly hate to be overly optimistic. Hehe. Cynical fuck! No wonder you're a socialist pig!

    But since you bother to mention it: In what capacity is it that I'm asleep? I'm the worst waker-upper EVER in the classical sense. Maybe it's carried over? Please, poor a little water on me brother spookz! I must awaken! Please brother! SHOW ME THE LIGHT! or something.
     
  20. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,779
    There's so much meat in that sausage...

    Wes:
    Agreed. Mind you that your writting methods get a bit loopy at times, words being left hanging or injected here and there to the point of a stumbling block.
    But your points, at best, get through. At times.

    Am I glossing? No. Unimpressed? No. Rushing to justify? Maybe. You're prey to that ill too, Wes. I don't usually quote piecemeal for fear of boring my victims....kidding, audiance.

    I read a whole post, pull out a line that screams at me and incorporate the rest I've read around it for flow. An example would be my bringing up a questioin or a statement you made earlier and put it in the middle of what I'm saying. Case in point:
    You asked if a thinking being needed language. We’ll see…… {posted on 9/14}

    Now that I see you'd rather me quote you line by line, I'm assuming carte blanche and will do so. Follow?

    Before we go anywhere, let us get something clear:
    you believe there to be some form of spirituality if not watered down spiritualism in the animal, you believe that you see it in their play and joviality, you believe that the human mind is still in the rough, rudimentary, quite possibly transcendent, you believe that self consciounsenss (not alertness.....that's different) would still be in the absence of language. Yes?

    and with this:
    You've graduated from my initial take on you. You came off as yet another one of those browsers playing their "religion is bullshit" wildcards.

    That's how you see it........and this is how I see it:
    And you don't agree. Understandable.
     
  21. spookz Banned Banned

    Messages:
    6,390
    it appears tho, the dankass knows of what i speak

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  22. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,846
    Well, whatever. If you don't like Gendy, or find her dishonest I don't suppose that's my bizness. I like her, and I don't think she's dishonest. I've been wrong before.

    Oh, and that she knows of what you speak is of no help to ME until one of you throws me a bone. Surely you could throw a brother a frickin bone, unless of course you're just instigating to which I'd say, participate or fuck off!

    Of course I'd prefer that you participate, but for fuck's sake, why just flame? Tell me what I've missed spookzy. Hook a brother up now.
     
  23. gendanken Ruler of All the Lands Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,779
    Spooky poodle:
    You annoying little twit.......what's your problem?
    You're like the pasty troll that sits all the way in the back of the room playing with his fingers. And all he'll ever do with a girl is sift through drawers and sniff out her thongs when she's not looking. Fucking boot licker.

    This place needs a kennel. And get off of my property.

    Wes:
    Yes. He is. I suggest he Websters him a time-out to look this word up: DILETTANTE

    I am working on a reply and tying up loose ends. Keep your skivvies on til then.
     

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