No not the BNP people in general who though not full BNP supporters see them as addressing a growing issue of immigration and EU membership. You have Brits angry over Italian and Polish workers, the are unions we are talking about not the BNP. Don't you remember the union workers walkouts: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/31/world/europe/31britain.htm Again I am amazed that you cannot discuss any of these issues outside of the BNP, we have a thread for that if you don't recall. What about the protest over Italian workers "The terms of the contract specified that IREM would be using its existing permanent Italian and Portuguese workforce for the job. British workers and their unions were unhappy. They felt this was the latest development in a chain of key infrastructure projects, at power stations and oil refineries across the UK, being subcontracted to foreign workers. They are concerned that UK workers are being denied the right to carry out the work. During a recession the sight of foreign workers carrying out such work is proving inflammatory to some, especially when they believe that suitably qualified unemployed UK contractors are available." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7860622.stm Maybe these incidents help give the nationalist movement a leg up? Perhaps you can scratch your head over that one. Where do you see a discussion of fascism? Again I don't see anyone addressing the issue only going all soft and waxing eloquently about nazis and hate mongering meanwhile grievances over EU compliance is left ignored. No wonder some of them vote BNPPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Its sheer frustration! Meanwhile Scandinavian's who have less experience with immigration than England is experiencing this: "Meanwhile, there is growing fear amongst politicians that the immigrant environment in the Nørrebro area in Copenhagen, which has been unofficially declared an “Islamic state” by some of its residents, is developing into a parallel society where ancient traditions threaten Danish law. Professor of Islamic studies Mehdi Mozaffari tells of how he and thousands of others have fled burkas, sharia, blood money, muftis and Islamism in the Middle East, only to witness the same beast rear its ugly head in Europe." "The most immediate victims of this climate of fear are Muslim women. A Pakistani man in Denmark recently murdered his sister in the street outside a train station because she had married a man against her family’s orders. Meanwhile, Muslims in Denmark do not hesitate to exercise their right to free speech. In 2004 a leading Danish mufti said that Danish women not wearing the veil “were asking for rape,” a comment seemingly less offensive to the Muslim community than a few cartoons. The twelve Muhammad cartoonists now live underground and with police protection." Trust me when I say ole liberal atheist Denmark was blind-sighted by these problems exploding in their society. But don't ask Sam about it because she'll just say its the Danes fault for sending 460 troops to Iraq and being such intolerant xenophobesPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Consequently and unfortunately all of these issues casts a black cloud over hard working immigrants muslim or not. Introducing Sharia law in Danish society is not like introducing Sharia law into England where the jewish Beth Din is already in use. Danes have not this kind of a multicultural society where they do not expect people to assimilate and integrate into their society, which is why it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't simply start repatriating a lot of their immigrants. But I say if you are so open and tolerant to allow for jewish courts in England don't complain when muslims want there own. Again this is a discussion about multiculturalism, immigration and integration think you can handle that without :soapbox: over BNP? What about Italy's cardinal Giacomo Biffi who called for a 'catholic only' immigration policy? He is quoted as saying in 2000: "The criteria for admitting immigrants can never be just economic. It is necessary to concern oneself seriously with saving the identity of the nation." Italy was not an "uninhabited region" lacking in history and traditions, which was fit to be "indiscriminately populated." While it could admit anyone it wanted, no one had a "right of invasion." He urged politicians to heed his words, since "not all of the cultures of those newly arrived are in favor of living together." He said he had recently aired the same views with a government minister. "I said, 'If you really have the good of Italy at heart, and want to spare a lot of suffering, then you can't allow all the immigrants in.'" He said he had warned the minister that civil unrest would be one of the consequences if immigration was not religious-selective. He told the minister: "I'm surprised you still haven't thought things through." He added: "I don't know how you're going to cope with Friday as a holiday, polygamy, discrimination against women, and the fundamentalism of Muslims, for whom politics and religion are the same thing. Do your sums properly." So get your head out of the BNP's butthole, its a little difficult to have perspective while you are scoping about in there, and pay bloody attention. This is a growing concern in Europe in general not just England. So what do you think should be done? How can locals and immigrants be sensitized towards each other? Is it that some cultures are like oil and water and cannot mix? What is a fair way to limit immigration? Is it even worth being an EU member which economically is beginning to behave like NAFTA, CAFTA and FTAA? You know Emmz like having a 'discussion' exchanging ideas and all that.
Thanks for your considered reply Lucy, I'll get back to you on that but I just wanted to say you've really made me think about things.
We see the same sort of problems with Muslims, Christians, Hindus Dalits that the Danish are complaining about. Its the kind of problems Australians have with aboriginals, Americans have with blacks, South African whites have with the coloureds and the Sinhalese have with Tamilians. The common factor in all of these is discrimination against a population group which leads to a kind of defensive regression into fundamentalism and a backlash against the "dominant culture". Muslims come from all around the world and have lived in all societies for over a thousand years. The issues that the Danes are facing with sharia courts and Pakistanis killing sisters who marry outside the clan should not come as a surprise to them if they read the EU reports on discrimination against Muslims in their society. Re: the resentment against Polish workers and Italian workers. Thats understandable, if you are not a free market economy. But not if you are a proponent of free trade. Western economic policies through the IMF, WB and UN have stripped whole economies off job prospects for decades in the name of free trade. Countries are forced to open up markets so that western imperialists can install their corporations and destroy local economies for economic gain. In fact, the British created the Third World for the sole purpose of having a market of cheap labour to exploit! Using their resources! Clearly, when the British themselves are introduced to the free market, they don't like it all that much. What a surprise! Structural adjustment policies have been around since the IMF began but they bothered no one, till they came home to roost. So now Europe faces a little bit of what its been dishing out. And they don't take their own advice. Well thats what they've advised the world to do. So why won't they do it themselves? http://www.globalissues.org/article/3/structural-adjustment-a-major-cause-of-poverty When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me. Me, I'll be very happy to see a discussion on these issues in Europe. Perhaps they'll even trickle down just a little bit out to us. Or maybe not. But we can hope.
Good I'm glad you are open to discussion and you have raised some interesting points though I think some may be mixing apples and oranges. I think its important to remember that not all European countries have a history of colonization, we cannot compare the French and algerians to Denmark and its immigrants for example, I think its helpful to be specific instead of making sweeping statements since each country is different. I don't think you can compare Australia and its aboriginals, South Africa and apartheid and blacks in the U.S to what is happening in places like Denmark and Italy because blacks were brought to the States for the purposes of slavery which has left the U.S and its black population with a different cultural pathos. These groups grew up with these nations which is not the case in say Denmark and Italy where immigration is relatively new. Australians at the beginning of its history emigrated, or were sent and then proceeded to strip the actual inhabitants of their land and their rights similar to Israel if you'll allow such a comparison again leading to a very particular mindset on the part of Aussies and Aboriginals. Italy really only began to absorb immigrants in the 80's from places like Northern Africa (Eritrea and somalia are two countries they colonized) and it was an open door policy and at the time Italians didn't see immigration as a problem even if integration had yet to take place. Later in the 90's they had a problem with Eastern Europeans crashing on through their borders and this they did not like at all as Albanians engaged in crime and disrupted society, now we see Italians reaching a saturation point with immigration and a closing of that open door. I have yet to hear italians complain about northern african immigrants. But as fundamentalism Islam seems to become more of a fear for other European nations i believe they are now reacting to this too. Anyway, England has a history of colonialism and so has had colonial responsibilities which is reflected in its immigration policy but even England will have to consider that they may have done their part with open immigration and now it is time to set limits as it takes time to absorb immigrants, it also takes time for an assimilation or integration process to take place. One question England needs to explore is how much of what is considered quintessentially english are they losing if at all and how much of that is due to non-integrated immigration. Will they go the way of the States where no base culture can exist as everyone forms their own pocket of cultural expression in whatever form eg NY's Puerto Rican, Jewish, Lebanese, Pakistani, Korean, African American sections. Or is it necessary in order to preserve this quintessential english quality to assimilate the people who are there. If so how? Should it be a criteria for incoming immigrants? Denmark is so homogenized that they will have to be very careful in future in terms of what cultural group and in what numbers they allow into their country. SAM: The issues that the Danes are facing with sharia courts and Pakistanis killing sisters who marry outside the clan should not come as a surprise to them if they read the EU reports on discrimination against Muslims in their society. I disagree with this. You are basically saying that muslims went there and then suffered discrimination and then became radical demanding Sharia law and killing their sisters. Maybe I misunderstood your point but this is incorrect. Danes welcomed the immigrants and then later on as these two cultures that have zero in common began to clash it became impossible to assimilate some of them. There is a portion of the muslim population that is resistant to assimilation and integration and this is what is causing the resentment towards them. How can you blame the Danes for a Pakistani killing his sister? Remember when it comes to religion the Danes are less religious than the French or English, they are your basic socialist atheists even if they have a history of Lutheranism. But I digress. As for the workers resentment against foreign workers I think its an EU membership issue more than a free market issue. Western European markets were free markets before the EU unless I misunderstand what you are saying. The EU is not comparable to the IMF, UN or World Bank. These institutions were set up to aid developing nations (whether you think they are doing a good job is besides the point). The EU is an attempt to unify European markets and population exchange which is very different. The EU is a membership, the UN, WB, IMF are separate institutions from the countries it dictates to. Some would argue that since the Pound is stronger than the Euro there is no point in joining, and that the EU is an artificial construct trying to dictate sovereign trade issues among other things. So when you say things like "So now Europe faces a little bit of what its been dishing out. And they don't take their own advice. " Remember that it wasn't Europe doing the dishing. The UN is not in control of the IMF or World Bank both institutions offering loans to developing nations. The IMF and World Bank are controlled by banking and financial institutions mostly form ten nations U.S., Britain, Japan, France, Germany, and Saudi Arabia being just a few and its the U.S that is the major controlling force behind these institutions. The policy of these institutions reflect those of the shareholders and exclude the developing nation that its supposed to help not government policies. This in no way mirrors the EU in purpose or function so I don't know what you mean by 'doing the dishing'. You seem to gloat over European problems which is a shame because it will be muslim immigrants who will be marginalized and penalized in the long run not the Europeans themselves. So what should we be brainstorming? Its fine and dandy to shell out blame on a historical basis but it hardly leads to any solutions.
I'll address the specific points made. Let me know if I leave out anything. Why do you think so? Do you think present day aboriginals, South African blacks or immigrants who do not suffer discrimination are the ones who are causing these problems? Is it the ones with an education and a job, the ones who are in a position of wealth and power who are driving these divisions? And yet, you will hear Australians and Danes complaining about them. Why is that? What are the Italians doing different? Is it that many Lebanese are Christians? Most Moroccans dress like Italians? Most Tunisians speak French? As you already know, I am not a proponent of protecting cultures by excluding people so this point is not one I will address. Thats probably because like expat Britains in Spain and expat Danes wherever, most Muslims who immigrate do not expect to give up their beliefs and social systems. In fact, I would bet even money that Danes do not alter their values if they move. I don't, in the same way I do not blame Afghans for the Danish troops in their country. Whatever causes people to resort to violence to impose their religious or political beliefs through force on others is the fault of the perpetrator, not the victims. Are you saying that the EU is opposed to the structural adjustment policies practiced by the IMF and WB? That they do not agree with the principles of free trade that the WB and IMF demand as a condition of aid? That the EU is diametrically opposed to these financial and economic principles? Not gloat, as much as cynically observe how the rules become very different when it comes to yourself. Do as I say, not as I do.
SAM, I don't know why you keep isolating these types of crimes against Pakistanis. You know domestic abuse and murder are prevalent in all societies, one needs only pick up the paper in any Western nation and will read such things as well. It's a vice perpetuated by criminals who do not represent a Nation group, and in Pakistan it is similarly outlawed. It is not about Pakistan's religious laws or as a backlash to what they see as a dominating culture, but it is in fact murder and should be treated as such. Furthermore, certain families care for racial or tribal purity even in India, so this is not isolated Pakistan, Afghanistan, and the surrounding region. Don't forget that southern Italy still has such problems to this day. What breeds resentment for Muslims in Denmark is the apathy of its media and its government to Muslim political and religious sentiments. When someone like Geert Wilders and Ayaan Hirsi Ali are given tacit support from the media and government officials in the region, it will naturally breed resentment. It is like if the European nations and media praised Goebbels for his vilification of the Jews during the Third Reich, which many of them did by the way at that time. There is a general feeling among all Muslims living in the West that their political and religious ideas are under attack from powerful media stations and influential organizations. This is coupled with a general uneasiness and paranoia of articulating their views in public, because they are apt to be demonized. Many active Palestinian activists in the US, for example, have either been deported to countries like Syria which jail or torture them, or are now under constant harassment by the FBI, often leading to them losing their jobs, and being forced to emigrate outside of the US. There are very powerful and influential organizations in many Western countries who are focusing their efforts at politically and socially marginalizing Muslims in their country. Remember, this is exactly how the Holocaust began. http://www.rense.com/general65/surviv.htm
I wasn't. I was responding to the specific example that Lucy gave. I know Marwaris who also treat their women just as badly.
I'm sure there are Pakistanis who have no objection to their "women" marrying foreigners , just as I am sure that there are Marwaris like that. I just haven't met any. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Sam: Why do you think so? Do you think present day aboriginals, South African blacks or immigrants who do not suffer discrimination are the ones who are causing these problems? Is it the ones with an education and a job, the ones who are in a position of wealth and power who are driving these divisions? Because the country grew up around these two main groups, the racism has left a racial mindset on both. Its not the same as say Latvia or the Ukraine where they have a long history of being in their country without diversity and then one day there are a handful of african students or burgeoning ethnic or religious group they have to assimilate and deal with. The aboriginals were oppressed full stop. There was no effort to assimilate or integrate since the European Aussies where the ones to come to the land and oppress the other into submission as opposed to say Danes trying to say 'welcome foreigner now we have to teach you about Jantelov, how to eat open sandwiches and ride a bicycle because this is what Danes do'. I do not think that blacks or Aboriginals who suffer discrimination are causing the problems though when a group grows up with a racial mindset that's culturally ingrained as it is in Aussie land or the U.S south for example it affects their behaviour like poor motivation,low expectations, in Afro americans the feeling of not having a cultural identity or with the Aboriginals and native U.S indians the feeling that it has been stolen or subverted, not feeling as good as (loss of pride), hypersensitivity, inability to have cohesive family units, drug and alcohol problems etc. In this sense they grow a mindset that in itself limits them and that is something the outside group or the oppressive group cannot undo for them its something that they have to do for themselves. New immigrants who come from India or Africa for example and move to a country are pretty much self-contained in terms of identity and culture. Yes they would have to work hard etc but they know what they are working for. I knew an african woman who arrived in Denmark a refugee with her son. She was a nurse in her home country but had to work as a hotel housekeeper until she could learn the language and then re-enter the education institutions to become re-licensed as a nurse. She had a nice apartment, her son was in school and doing well all provided by the Danish government, she had recently purchased a new computer for him which was a big deal in that house. Now yeah she doesn't like being a maid, hated danish weather but she feels that being safe in denmark where her son can get a good education was better than being unstable in her home country. When she shows me pictures of her family and home she had a nice life there, a middle class life but Sierra Leone wasn't the place to be. No I do not think it is the people with education, jobs and wealth that are driving divisions I think that it is something more primal, a clash of culture, values and sensibilities. There are your common yahoo racist of course these exist but I think that what happened in Denmark for example is that they didn't set up the proper integration tools from the beginning and be honest about expectations. I am not speaking of the obvious like learning the language or not committing a crime, I have no problem with people being repatriated if they commit a crime. I am speaking about what measure of integration is expected for example host culture values as opposed to those which an immigrant brings with them. I think that if you plan to live and work in another country and adopt it as your own for generations to come they should be prepared to give up something. Children which in Denmark they call 'second generation' have families that have traditional expectations of them but they live in a liberal non-religious society. If they cannot bear that for their children then perhaps they should not be in Denmark but go to the States or to another country where assimilation isn't so important. To give you an example of how important assimilation is to Danish society, they themselves force it on each other through the unspoken Yantelov. These are the ten social rules: Don't think that you are special. Don't think that you are of the same standing as us. Don't think that you are smarter than us. Don't fancy yourself as being better than us. Don't think that you know more than us. Don't think that you are more important than us. Don't think that you are good at anything. Don't laugh at us. Don't think that anyone of us cares about you. Don't think that you can teach us anything. And further Don't think that there is something we don't know about you. Now this is what keeps them in a clanish socialist/communist mindset. It not only levels but keeps people basically the same. Now if this is what they do to each other (and believe me when I say they do) what makes you think they will not have the same attitude to an outsider. I think you get my meaning. Anyway... Sam: And yet, you will hear Australians and Danes complaining about them. Why is that? What are the Italians doing different? Is it that many Lebanese are Christians? Most Moroccans dress like Italians? Most Tunisians speak French? Well I don't know about Australians but I do know that no the Italians have not complained about their north african immigrants who have largely adopted the italian way of life but they do have problems with illegal immigrants and immigrants who resist taking on the italian way of life. So if you become inundated with illegals who steal etc then it casts a shadow but for the most part its the Albanians, then if you have a muslim population that isn't integrating and hasn't adopted the host countries religion then there is a clash. The pope didn't help when he lambasted Islam but if you look at Italian society you would see efforts to accommodate like this: Italian Plans Beaches for Muslim Women August 3, 2006 ROME — An Italian resort plans to create all-female beach sections for Muslim women wishing to shed their headscarves and long robes to enjoy the sun in privacy, officials said Thursday. Riccione, a resort town on Italy’s eastern coast, will let hotels set up partitions on the shoreline to satisfy requests from growing numbers of Arab and Muslim tourists. "Our beaches are big enough to answer this need," said Loretta Villa, Riccione’s councilwoman. "We live on tourism and we can’t survive if we don’t satisfy the requests of our customers." By making some areas off-limits to men, observant Muslim women will be able to ease up on religious restrictions to cover up if men are present, Villa said. The reserved beaches would be waited on by by waitresses and watched over by women lifeguards. The partitions will not reach into the sea as a section, Villa said. To allow Muslim women to swim without covering up in robes and headscarves, Riccione would consider building reserved seaside swimming pools, she said. But these efforts are undermined by incidents like this: Italy Thwarts Terrorist Attack Days Before Election By Sabina Castelfranco Rome 07 April 2006 Just days before Italy's general election, the interior minister announced that authorities had foiled a planned terror attack. Security had already been increased ahead of the elections. Security was heightened in Italy after the Sept 11, 2001, terror attacks in the United States, and has been tight ahead of general elections Sunday and Monday. Authorities are taking no chances, particularly after pre-election bombings in Spain in March 2004. With only days to the vote in Italy, Interior Minister Giuseppe Pisanu made his announcement. "I can confirm," he said, "that a serious terrorist attack has been foiled in the cities of Bologna and Milan." Speaking at a campaign rally in Sardinia, Pisanu said there was a terrorist plan aimed at Italy, which was prevented, thanks to the controls and preventative measures taken by the security apparatus. The interior minister said the targets were the subway system in Milan and the 14th century Basilica of San Petronio in Bologna, which has a fresco of the Prophet Mohammad burning in hell. Muslim groups have interpreted that fresco as offensive to Islam. Pisanu added that, of the seven alleged plotters, three have been expelled, two are in prison, one is under surveillance and another one is wanted. The wanted man is believed to have been the mastermind behind the attacks. In Milan on Friday, investigators began presenting their evidence at a trial against a man dubbed Mohammed, the Egyptian, suspected of having helped plan the Madrid train bombings. The trial comes days before a Spanish judge is due to charge about 30 people with involvement in the Madrid train bombings, bringing to an end a two-year investigation. This idea that there are retribution attacks against Europeans for not honoring Islam is placing Europeans in an all or nothing situation. The Danes don't want to walk on eggshells when it comes to their right to free speech even if it is about Islam, nor evidently does the Pope. So the response is to limit their access to the country. Its the feeling that if Islam is so important to them then let them go and live in a Muslim nation. Meanwhile hard working muslims who mind their own business pay the price. Yes many Tunisians speak French. Sam: Thats probably because like expat Britains in Spain and expat Danes wherever, most Muslims who immigrate do not expect to give up their beliefs and social systems. In fact, I would bet even money that Danes do not alter their values if they move. Danes generally move to other Western nations like England and the States which are already liberal societies. Danes are a small population of people, you don't see them fleeing their country in droves. There are not that many Danes living in Asia, I have met a few but not many. And brits like the french bring culture with them but where are they going in huge numbers where they have to live off of government assistance paid for by locals and seeking asylum from hardship economic or otherwise? In Cambodia the work foreigners provide is work that the locals cannot provide for themselves. When this changes so does the need for English teachers and outside skilled labor which we have seen in Thailand for example. Immigrants who move to Europe are not for the most part doing so on a foreign contract like working for the UN or doing so for a laugh or for adventure and a warmer climate. They are attempting to escape their countries and gain access to systems that offer better pay, education and stability, most of them move there with the desire to stay there and move their relatives there. This you don't see in your Danish or English expat who generally go to wherever with money to support themselves. If someone wants the benefit of a host country where that country has to foot the bill they may very well have to alter beliefs and social systems or they will face marginalization or be denied the right to stay. Its up to them really. The Swiss does not offer someone who wants to become a citizen the option of not integrating into Swiss society and this may become true in other countries as well. And I think they have the right to do this. Moving to another country and gaining access to their benefits and citizenship is not a human right its a privilege. Sam: I don't, in the same way I do not blame Afghans for the Danish troops in their country. Whatever causes people to resort to violence to impose their religious or political beliefs through force on others is the fault of the perpetrator, not the victims. Well this is a convoluted comparison. First of all the Danes have withdrawn their troops from Afghanistan and Iraq (all 460 of them) You see foreign troops in Afghanistan the same as a brother murdering his sister because she wanted to marry? I don't think so. Its a hysterical comparison. The Danes couldn't give a toss what happens in Iraq or Afghanistan they are not american and it is not their government policy. Sam: Are you saying that the EU is opposed to the structural adjustment policies practiced by the IMF and WB? That they do not agree with the principles of free trade that the WB and IMF demand as a condition of aid? That the EU is diametrically opposed to these financial and economic principles? I am saying that the EU's internal economic affairs which is what Europeans are reacting to and concerned about is not a part of the IMF and WB. Unions in England again are not concerned with the IMF and WB in developing countries they are concerned with EU membership and its consequences something that their countries participate in and can always withdraw from. What the EU supports vis a vis the WB and IMF is besides the point. Eventually if this keeps up Europe might become more isolationist and give less and less loans anyway, something that has already begun in places like Africa since the economic downturn. Having ones hand out is not a good position to be in. Sam: Not gloat, as much as cynically observe how the rules become very different when it comes to yourself. Do as I say, not as I do. What rules? Be specific.
You need to get around more. I know dozens of Pakistanis married to Arabs, Turks, Iranians, Afghanis, and Indian Muslims. It is extremely common. Pakistani is a nationality, not a race. We have Omani/ Yemeni Arabs, Turks, Turkic, Iranians, Afghanis, Kashmiris, Brahui (mixed black African-Baloch), Indian Muslims (Gujuratis, Biharis, Nepali, Tamil, etc.) and Chinese Muslims (Uygur and Hui).
Well this is exactly the point Diamonds, Danes don't want nor feel the need to be sensitive towards islamic politics and religion when it comes to their own country. This is exactly the point, they are wondering why some of their muslim immigrants are holding on to that if they want to live in the country. Denmark is a liberal, socialist mostly atheist country of five million and not a multicultural nation. They feel that if muslims want to concern themselves with political and religious issues because its so important to their identity then they shouldn't live in Denmark because it isn't any of those things. The journalists who wrote the cartoon had to go in hiding because of extremist threats of retaliation, this is something the Danes resent as it means their free speech is being curtailed by a minority and now they have to walk on eggshells because of a minority in their own society. They are the descend from the Vikings trust me when I say that they will become more fiercely anti-muslim if there is no integration. Challenges like this: "The woman was told on January 15th that she was no longer welcome at Västerort Vuxengymnasium, an adult education college in Spånga, if she persisted in wearing her niqab. The niqab is part of a hijab headress and covers the entire face except for the eyes." http://www.thelocal.se/17528/ If this is forced on the majority of people in the country it will only breed hatred and bigotry as they set themselves apart. Scandinavians are clans they expect integration and assimilation.
Unfortunately, this breeds resentment on both sides and is not conducive to any advantages. The Danish are still suffering for the cartoon controversy as the majority of Muslim nations have boycotted them outright. I guess the ethics of Scandinavian countries and Muslim nations differ significantly. Muslim cultures tend to be syncretic, relying since ancient times on links with other nations and featuring multi-ethnic communal harmony. Unfortunately many European countries have not been as tolerant to immigrants, just look at how the Gypsies are treated throughout Europe, and the Jews were before World War 2, and now discrimination against Muslims. I don't blame the common people of Denmark, rather I believe it is a media and government elite which perpetuates conflict between Danes and Muslim immigrants. Many Muslims have lived in Denmark and built its infrastructure, I suppose they desire to be recognized as a respected and equal community. I see exactly where you are coming from, and this is quite a popular view in many Western countries. The sad reality is that Muslim nations are poor, torn by war and conflict, and ruled by heavy-handed secular dictators. All products of colonialism and European dominance over their affairs for nearly 200 years. The common Muslim just wants enough money to take care of their family, and they are willing to put up with a less than ideal situation for a better future for their children. While Muslim children growing up in Denmark and other universities, taught in its schools and universities, seeing the hatred and vilification of their way of life and the invasions of their countries are naturally on the defensive. The West likes to preach a lot of about freedom, brotherhood, and the pursuit of happiness, but yet when Muslim immigrants attempt to exert their rightful political influence as a fabric of the said society, they are ridiculed, vilified, and painted as criminals. The situation is rather complicated, and the general Muslim mind is torn by what they perceive as a world which is complicit in their demonization and extermination. The sense of victimization is strong among Muslims, and perhaps strongest among Muslim minorities in the West.
Know any Pakistani women married to Germans, Hungarians, Poles, Sri Lankans, Japanese, Mexicans or New Zealanders?Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I'm guessing the Pakistani who killed his sister for marrying a foreigner would not have done so if she had married an Arab or a Turk. I know many Pakistani men who are married to foreign non-Muslim women. Not any Pakistani women. Then I think it would be better if they only imported other Scandinavians and repatriated all other non-Scandinavians. It works for the Chinese and the Saudis. It may work for them. Its not fair to other people for the Scandinavians to impose such expectations on them while pretending to be "liberal" in their outlook. They should, from the outset define their clannishness and restrict all "other" types from entry. The Afghanis had less of an option regarding the entry of Danish troops [even if it was only one] than the Danes had regarding immigrants. The Afghans had NO options regarding how long the troops would stay, where they would "practise" using their arms, where they were stationed, if they would break into homes and pull out "insurgents", if they would enter the womens private chambers or if they would fire at will. Thats not a hysterical comparison, thats a fact. The Danes pulled out their troops when they decided they had enough. The opinions of the indigenous Afghans was completely irrelevant throughout the procedure. The Pakistani immigrant is accountable to the law. The Danish soldiers who aided and abetted these "US led" forces that killed several women and children are not accountable to anyone: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20061209/ai_n16900309/
But Muslims didn't help build their infrastructure. It has only been in the past 15 years that they brought in many foreigners. As this article below explains: In 1978-9 I was living and studying in Denmark. But in 1978 - even in Copenhagen , one didn't see Muslim immigrants. The Danish population embraced visitors, celebrated the exotic, went out of its way to protect each of its citizens. It was proud of its new brand of socialist liberalism one in development since the conservatives had lost power in 1929 - a system where no worker had to struggle to survive, where one ultimately could count upon the state as in, perhaps, no other western nation at the time. The rest of Europe saw the Scandinavians as free-thinking, progressive and infinitely generous in their welfare policies. Denmark boasted low crime rates, devotion to the environment, a superior educational system and a history of humanitarianism. Denmark was also most generous in its immigration policies - it offered the best welcome in Europe to the new immigrant: generous welfare payments from first arrival plus additional perks in transportation, housing and education. It was determined to set a world example for inclusiveness and multiculturalism. How could it have predicted that one day in 2005 a series of political cartoons in a newspaper would spark violence that would leave dozens dead in the streets -all because its commitment to multiculturalism would come back to bite? By the 1990's the growing urban Muslim population was obvious - and its unwillingness to integrate into Danish society was obvious. Years of immigrants had settled into Muslim-exclusive enclaves. As the Muslim leadership became more vocal about what they considered the decadence of Denmark 's liberal way of life, the Danes - once so welcoming - began to feel slighted. Many Danes had begun to see Islam as incompatible with their long-standing values: belief in personal liberty and free speech, in equality for women, in tolerance for other ethnic groups, and a deep pride in Danish heritage and history. The New York Post in 2002 ran an article by Daniel Pipes and Lars Hedegaard, in which they forecasted accurately that the growing immigrant problem in Denmark would explode. In the article they reported: "Muslim immigrants.constitute 5 percent of the population but consume upwards of 40 percent of the welfare spending." "Muslims are only 4 percent of Denmark 's 5.4 million people but make up a majority of the country's convicted rapists, an especially combustible issue given that practically all the female victims are non-Muslim. Similar, if lesser, disproportions are found in other crimes." http://www.aina.org/news/20080718105208.htm Again the Danes want their immigrants to integrate. The Danes are not a racist people out to get Muslims but the insistence of muslims to separate themselves is the cause of the problem in Denmark.
There are similar figures in the US on black criminals. Probably in Sri Lanka on the Tamils, in South Africa on the black natives, in Australia on the aboriginals. The disenfranchised don't assimilate.
Well no other Europeans and Asians do fine in Scandinavia, even Africans. The problem came when the few thousand immigrants turned into 100 thousand plus. The problem is that any group who insists on remaining separate from Danish society will clash with Danish society. They're a little like the BorgPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Yes they are and will probably continue to restrict immigrants from certain countries or religious groups in the future. What does 460 withdrawn troops from both Iraq and Afghanistan, a mere symbolic effort as opposed to an actual political engagement have to do with immigration of people from asia, Yemen, somalia, morocco etc have to do with Iraq and Afghanistan? What does it have to do with immigration since they have recently taken iraqi and afghan immigrants?
Clearly, the Danish are not willing to tolerate customs different from their own. EU reports on discrimination against the "savages" who "breed like rats" is clearly documented, even in the public and institutional sphere. Thats better for the immigrants too. At least, there are no illusions about freedom of religion and beliefs. It was an example to point out why I don't blame the Afghans for the Danish troops who occupied their country any more than I blame the Danes for the Pakistani who killed his sister. The one Pakistani is as representative as the 460 Danes breaking into Afghani homes pre-dawn and killing women and children.
So you didn't read this part of the article: "Years of immigrants had settled into Muslim-exclusive enclaves. As the Muslim leadership became more vocal about what they considered the decadence of Denmark 's liberal way of life, the Danes - once so welcoming - began to feel slighted. Many Danes had begun to see Islam as incompatible with their long-standing values: belief in personal liberty and free speech, in equality for women, in tolerance for other ethnic groups, and a deep pride in Danish heritage and history." "Muslim immigrants.constitute 5 percent of the population but consume upwards of 40 percent of the welfare spending." If you are going to state that the muslims are disenfranchised then you should provide proof of that allegation. Like I said you can repeat it as often as you like but I don't see how you can compare dragging someone from their land and turning them into a slave (which is disenfranchisement) or going into someone's land (which is disenfranchisement) with offering a people a safe have, giving them medical, work, education, housing and assistance of all kinds which are paid for by Danes and then saying they are disenfranchised. How are they disenfranchised? Show proof otherwise it is simple bias on your part to acknowledge that all people of color and all muslims are not victims of western oppression.
I stopped here What determines immigrant housing in Denmark? I already provided a link to the EU report on [Danish] racism against immigrants beginning with the first wave of immigrants. Here is a newer one: http://www.euractiv.com/en/general/austria-denmark-uk-criticised-racism-report/article-111995
