Just like muslims right? Some are extremists and some spread love and tolerance. Some here don't see the difference.
Yeah, especially the ones who think Saudis are intolerant. I mean, wtf??? here's how the Shiv Sena and VHP managed to get into a position to enact policies: Maybe they won't find enough people now, but give them time and money and anything is possible.
I can see both sides of this argument and agree on points made by both sides. While it's each country's right to want to preserve their culture and heritage, whilst maintaining an open and compassionate approach to multi-ethnic societies, it is difficult to employ without the far right parties using that to further their platform of hate. Some people aren't against multi-culturalism as long as it doesn't impinge upon the country's inherent, perhaps indigenous, way of life. That's fair and understandable. What is not fair is when that stance is used to incite racial tension. It's fair to say the Danes are not as a society racist, and that all they seek is a preservation of their culture, what isn't fair is when that's used to, as I've said, incite racial tension. I see no evidence of Denmark doing that from what Lucy has said, and I'll go with her judgement on this because she has experience to back her up. I'd say that reading Sam's posts she is in favour of multi-culturalism as long as it means her beliefs and the beliefs she finds tolerant and tolerates are preserved. Lucy
I don't see the BNP and the Danish government as being the same, though Pia does represent a nationalist movement and some call her racist. What I disagree with is that nationalist movements have to be racist. There isn't a nationalist movement or party here in the States, they do go back and forth on immigration. Nevertheless there is racial hatred, race riots, bigotry etc. Racial violence, hatred, riots and bigotry will exist regardless. What I have been saying is that this knee jerk reaction to even discuss immigration or EU membership labeling anyone who discusses it as racist and intolerant is partly what has given the BNP the legs up. Ignoring these issues only pushes people more towards the right. Multiculturalism is all fine and good but a nation has to be ready for it. The States and England isn't Denmark and Latvia. Each nation has to make sure that when they opt for immigration that they are prepared to deal with the issues that will arise over time when introducing a new culture on home ground. The Danes obviously were not prepared, I think they assumed that people moving to a new country would naturally abide by the laws and naturally try to assimilate and be part of, not set themselves apart from, said new society. Like I said the problem in Denmark isn't reflective of all immigrants but the problems of some have now affected all. Also I think its fascist to insist and try and force multiculturalism on a people that do not want it like the Russians for example and then complain when there is violence and bigotry. The fact is that all people do not mix well together. The Khmers have a problem with vietnamese immigrants, The danes do not have a problem with vietnamese immigrants. The dynamics of group relations and integration changes with circumstances. If we do not address some of the valid issues the BNP are unafraid to put on the table then it is like brushing the issue under the table and pretending we all love each other and waiting for a larger keg of dynamite to burst open. The thing about intolerance and racism is that people have a right to feel that way if they want to. People have the right to not want to marry outside their race, people have a right to associate only with their kind. What they don't have the right to do is break the law. To say people don't have a right to hate is simply mind policing and naive. Right now in the States to ethnically profile an african american is mostly considered wrong, but if its done to a muslim its accepted. Its bullshit to say that bigotry will somehow be wiped out of 'civilization' civilization will always have problems with in this regard unless you wipe out ALL differences. That means Danes give up their culture, Sam loses her religion and we can all be a part of a blanket consumer culture where we all dress, eat and live the same lifestyle. I'm not for that. I live in NY when I visit Bangkok I don't want to see what I see in NY, when I go to London it doesn't interest me to see 'downtown bombay', when I go to downtown Bombay I don't want to see NY. Sam's tongue in cheek sarcasm represents the hyperbole she often uses and I tend to think she means what she says. The comments she makes is like a BNP's wet dream where they can point and say 'you see'
You don't need a country full of racists to reach ignition point. If nothing else, the Holocaust should teach people that. Myself, I've seen a moderate country like India elect the BJP to power on a Hindutva platform based on such nationalism. The massacre of Muslims in Gujarat under Modi was not something that happened in isolation nor was the coming forward of the VHP with its Hindu Rashtra platform, or the Ram Sena who brutally thrashed girls going to pubs [they actually filmed themselves, they were so convinced of their righteousness] or the speech by Maneka Gandhis son on his election platform. These kind of "nationalists" bring the rats out of their holes.
Perhaps but the only way to "bring it out in the open" is to let people have their say as the Indians did with the BJP. It will not be pretty and people will die. But apparently if there is one thing we learn from history is that at least some people must die for other people to find equilibrium. Not at all, I've given the example of the Saudis. Forced to endure their own xenophobic society, they will move out of it. Lots of people will have died in the interim, as did with the Taliban, but thats the price we seem unwilling to give up paying.
Jesus Sam you are being excitable. The BNP has won two seats, big deal! They are no gas chambers being built. Unlike India they are not killing each other in the streets. Your issues in India are not European issues, your history in India is not reflective of European history. Europe can quite easily deal with the immigration problems but it has to be done now. I think the Danish move is a sane one, I have no problem with limiting immigration in England and I think the swiss model a good one.
I completely agree. You did, however, say the BNP were not hate mongers, and yet in this post you seem to indicate the BNP are extreme, by saying if we don't address the issues the BNP are willing to raise (I agree, we must) then a larger keg will open. Therefore, I say let's address the issues and leave out the fascism of the BNP and his half-cocked ideas. He's nothing more than a Peter Creedy-like hate monger. I say that with respect for him as a human but not his ideals.
If it were just the BNP, your point would be valid. Its a trend in Europe and elsewhere and the recession will heighten it. A dozen Indian students have already been attacked in Australia in the past month. It will get worse before it gets better. Lets hope it doesn't get too bad. I hate to say this, but I have little confidence in how Europeans deal with issues. Just look at NATO in Iraq, Bosnia and Afghanistan. Or even Iran and Palestine. One shudders to think of these people in charge.
I was only talking about the BNP in this instance. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I agree people are manipulating immigration issues to further their fascist propaganda. My thoughts go out to those who have been attacked and their families. I only hope (wishfully) the attackers gain some perspective. I'm inclined to agree with you there.
No I said not all BNP members are racist and hateful towards people who are not like them. You're doing what Sam does when she throws all Israeli citizens in the same basket and declares them all 'haters'. Who is addressing these issues?:bugeye: Why haven't these issues been discussed before the BNP has two seats? Remember it is average citizens who voted for them, its the democratic process at work right. You can outlaw the BNP if you like but right now its a legal party. No one has to appreciate anyone else's ideals, this is besides the point. The thread is about immigration, multiculturalism and integration and what has happened is that instead of discussing these 3 issues you have focused on the BNP. So I guess there can be no discussion on these issues unless its attached to a nationalist movement. Go figurePlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Ah EmmZ! I had addressed my post to Lucy. I agree with you that it should not be allowed to boil over. Hence my wish that the issues are addressed quickly. Unlike Lucy, I do not blame the immigrants or think that one needs to be "ready" to live with people who are different from us. I've seen the same issues pop up with the Shiv Sena in reference to immigration from other states to Maharashtra [they reserve 80% of state jobs for "indigenous" peoples and still complain about non-assimilating "immigrants" who won't learn to read the Marathi signs or speak the Marathi language; note that, as a Bombay born Muslim with a Maharashtrian mother I am not indigenous] and its all the same hogwash to me. I see it [quite arrogantly] as a kind of entitlement mentality where you divide stuff into mine and yours and no matter how many times you do it, there are still more divisions to make. BUT, I grew up in Bombay so ethnocentrism is beyond my comprehension. I am as happy to see a desi in NY as I am to see Tom Alter in Mumbai.
(From the BNP discussion) My conclusion from that was you neither thought the BNP as a whole, nor its party leader were hate mongers. While I do agree they're not all like that, I have seen conclusive evidence that Nick Griffin does incite racial hatred. To say his party members don't subscribe to that at large would be naive. I think they are raising some difficult issues but they're doing it on a platform of propaganda. As a party they are bigots. In the other thread you also used this reasoning. You claimed I was not addressing immigration issues. What you didn't acknowledge was that immigration issues are not the only subjects I was raising and you jumped to conclusions about my lack of willingness to address them. I'm not saying I did not want to talk or address the issues raised about immigration, you concluded I didn't which was jumping the gun. Just like you've done there. I understand this is not an ideal platform to air all your views holistically but gradually. Perhaps before we start saying what each of us are "doing just like Sam". We might actually want to hear the views of the other person. I don't know what "go figures" means but I'll assume it's an attempt at belligerence. Fair enough, that's up to you. I have talked about the three issues raised. I have also suggested the reason the BNP are not a good example of a party willing to address the issues on immigration, multi-culturalism and integration through a less bigoted view. I understand these issues have been repressed and not spoken about and that's really unfortunate that it's come to a point where Griffin has become the spokesperson for a small minority of people. My solution would be to take these issues up with someone other than him. At the moment there's a divide and there needs to be a middle ground. I don't see anyone willing to take that position in Britain right now, and so we're stuck between a rock and a hard place in either dealing with immigration, multi-culturalism and integration with the BNP or ignoring them with other parties. And so I have to weight up what my own concerns are, like education, crime, employment and others besides and between the two options I'll go for anything other than them.
you say that but if it is one Tom Alter by himself? thats not the point s.a.m., what makes you happy to see from your tunnel vision and biased perspective is not the issue. the point is that if a country opens its doors then immigrants should appreciate that.
can you just walk into india or china...IF you are not indian or chinese? maybe a few people can get away with it but what do they do when they discover you?
