Just watched the video. How is denying a Muslim English child the same education as his white English peer giving him some essential human right?
Well exactly I am against the segregation of groups in a host culture. Even in Cambodia where there are minority groups which include the Muslim Chams, Khmers and these groups inter marry, they hang out, they are thought of as sharing a same history AND legacy even if they don't share the same religion and ethnicity. And no one has their own god damn flag outside of a cambodian one. All the stuff about compassion etc is irrelevant. We don't need Ghandi we just need a common sense perhaps even heavy handed approach where you create an environment where they have to form a common ground. Yes damn it I'm EnglishPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I have grown up in the States and England and I go back and forth. I live in South East Asia. I am currently dating a non racist English man who voted BNP.
No. Compassion and acceptance is a disposition, an attitude. I can have compassion and acceptance as long as they belong to my group. The Americans didn't tackle racism by going on about compassion and acceptance you can talk about that while someone is petrol bombing your home. You have to force the common ground, that is how they got rid of separate but equal. You have to let them know that they are not in Bangladesh or Pakistan anymore, especially since they have been in the country for generations. If they want a pakistan they can go back to pakistan. How else can you build a common heritage, legacy and common goals and not simply think in terms of ones stupid little group?
And here, we forever part ways. :wave: If you come to my country Lucy, you will be free to interact with and live among other Anglos, wear western clothing, drink yourself silly and speak English. You can build a church educate your children in Christianity or atheism, eat pork and no one will so much as raise an eyebrow. You will be welcome in all our homes. Atithi deva bhavo. A guest is God. I'm proud to be an Indian /waves flag
Why was slavery abolished in 1833 (1865 US)? What forced the civil rights of Indians in the 20s 30s and 40s? And again in America in the 50s? Women's votes in 1918 (1920 in US)? Ended apartheid in 1994 in Africa? Actually, we could do with a Gandhi or a Mandela. If you don't think compassion, the end of apartheid and acceptance are fundamental in bringing about change for civil rights, upholding human rights and politics give up your vote as a woman, go and get yourself a slave (of non white ethnicity) and keep your walls up and your heart closed. With respect, I'm done here. Thank you for the discussion.
I made this statement to illustrate that these types of norms were quite common even in Europe several decades ago. Muslims have a religious identity, therefore attempting to stifle their right to dress or gain education as they so choose is only going to create more tension. Imagine forcing Catholic students to attend public schools against their will. Imagine forcing nuns to uncover themselves. Respect and human decency are the only ways to move forward. You are assuming that they choose not to communicate with the wider white community. This is not the case. Unfortunately many white British people don't want to understand Muslims. I am sure there are people on both sides whom are weary of each other, but most people among the Muslim community have no problems communicating with the white community in Britain. Indeed they have to, being a minority, the majority discourse is the norm and they are an exception. They don't have a choice. And I will blame anyone who supports racist and violent groups such as the BNP. This type of discourse which you are discusses right now was popular in America during the 70's, it lead to the rise of Neo-KKK groups, Neo-Nazis, and other groups which butchered African-Americans resulting in several violent riots because of the lack of police in protecting them from harm or arresting these people. You are assuming that the white British cannot be xenophobic, indeed they can be very xenophobic. Unfortunately, much of this is directed against Muslim women and children. therefore it is quite understandable for Muslims to be over-protective in a society of fear and racism. No one chooses to live in ghettos and slums, they are forced into it. Either by the policies of the government or their own economic problems. Poor white British people do concern me, but the issues they face are of a different nature. Poverty everywhere is an injustice, and the government should concern itself with its eradication. However, it is a well established fact that some groups of people are economically disadvantaged than other groups. In the US it is whites and blacks, in the UK it is whites and Asians. The situation of the Muslims of the UK, is not only a religious problem, it is also contempt for their heritage, denial of political voice, economic disadvantage, and racism in the wider society. Many of these problems are the result of the divisive policies of the British government (esp under Blair), but many of these policies continue to this day. It is common to blame Muslims for their own problems, and this is the reason why many people won't understand the Muslims and why the situation will get only more precarious. I guarantee you that if you expect Muslims to start attending British pubs, you are asking for basically religious and cultural suicide of the community. As a whole, it is unrealistic to expect them to abandon their values to mold themselves to the wider British culture. If you talk about football, hockey, cricket, I think you will find much more in common among British Muslim and white youth. I believe that even many British parents are uneasy about their children having a night out in a wild bar, and this isn't exclusive to Muslim parents. It is quite apparent however, that Muslims parents expect their children to be more obedient to them as regards where they go out and also an expectation of loyalty to religion. I still don't understand, how does one become British? Is it by going to a pub every saturday and getting drunk? Painting a union jack on your belly in a football game? What exactly is being expected of Muslims? I did listen to the Muslim narrative, but I believe it was rather limited to what the people making the program wanted to pain in this alarmist program. The divisions are quite real, but it seemed to be from the perspective of Asian encroachment on white lands. White people moving out of Asian dominated neighborhoods illustrated quite well the xenophobia and distrust among many in the white community of this town for Asians, particularly Muslims. You are right, perhaps I expect too much from the BBC. Judging from their reporting in Afghanistan and Pakistan, how would I expect them to report any other way. Obviously the dominant narrative is that Islam is a threat to white culture, so as long as this is what many white British people believe, the situation will continue to be as it is. Regarding being uncomfortable, naturally different people have different norms. I had not seen any white resident claim they would be comfortable in a Muslim home. It goes both ways. What was briefly shown, but not discussed was the minority fear that if they moved into a white neighborhood, hate crimes and personal harm would inflict them. Most of the people in the Muslim Asian community, and even the wider Asian community, have either faced hate crime against themselves or know someone who has been directly affected. Naturally it creates mistrust. The issue of the Muslim boy walking in a Muslim neighborhood with a white female schoolmate is a major issue with the Muslim community. The reason being that there is a stigma to Muslims children dating. It would similarly be the case, if a Muslim boy dated a Muslim girl. It is the issue of chastity, and the stigma attached to being unchaste. These are Muslim norms of behavior, they are not going to change anytime soon. If it had been a group of Muslim and white students, it would not have been a problem. Unfortunately this is the dominant Muslim fear. When Muslim women are abused and raped in the streets of white neighborhoods, or Muslim boys beaten up by BNP gangs, this will naturally create hostility and fear. For the Muslim community, this is a very real and scary issue, and in the protection of their community, they are being forced into isolation by both government policies which blame them as a community for terrorism and racist gangs who prey on weak Muslim children and women. It was a religious parade. You will similarly find such parades in Jewish communities, waving Israeli flags. Hindu parades with their idols. The difference being the Jews are accepted and Muslims are not. Now if white British people took interest in their holidays and celebrations, as Muslims do on British holidays, this would accomplish a lot in the area of understanding and mutual harmony.
I note that Lucy who lives in South Asia is dating a "non-racist English man who voted BNP" Did you date any South Asian men while you were there? Do you live apart from other white, English speaking people? Do you hang out with other English people or with the locals? Do you participate in the local customs and culture? Is your free time spent in English pastimes or in South Asian ones? Do you communicate in the local language or in English? Are there any English people who have stayed there for more than 20 years? Is there an English community there? Are there English children going to South Asian schools?
The majority of Muslim children in England go to English schools. It's basically BNP propaganda which is resulting in the rise of hatred of Muslims among a minority of white people. I'm done as well. I prefer not to crush the dreams or the heritage of anyone in pursuit of making other, different people mirror images of ourselves.
Boy did you misunderstand that post. What I am saying is that compassion is selective, you don't necessarily show compassion to everyone. Anyway I have already lived in your country for a year.
I don't need your respect Emmz. Slavery was abolished for a variety of political reasons compassion NOT being one of them unless you believe southern plantation owners one day had a bout of compassion. The civil war was not fought to abolish slavery it was fought to keep the south from ceding from the Union as the South was the economic muscle for the North. Women fought for their voice and got it, they were not granted it out of a sense of compassion. Apartheid was also fought for and won not through the compassion of the Afrikaner but constant and vigilant resistance. Only people living in ivory towers think a fight can be won by feeling alone. Emmz: you don't think compassion, the end of apartheid and acceptance are fundamental in bringing about change for civil rights, upholding human rights and politics give up your vote as a woman, go and get yourself a slave (of non white ethnicity) and keep your walls up and your heart closed. :bugeye: Huh? My closed heart?Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! You're such a pretentious wanker, not only do you misunderstood what I wrote but then you have the stupidity to think you know anything at all about anyones heart. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Reason is more important than emotion. dum dum
How did you find it? We all have our triggers. When I arrived home the boy who comes in every day to sweep our yard [he must be around 15, but he is 6 feet tall and towers over me, a lanky fellow], burst into a smile when he saw me, came forward, asked me how I am and ....touched my feet in obeisance! My instinctive reaction was to lurch back but I did not, because it would have offended his sense of propriety and been a deep insult to him. It does not matter to him that I am a Muslim, he is a Hindu and thats how he shows respect to his elders [sadly, I now qualify as an elder]. It goes against every instinct that I possess as an egalitarian, but I can respect his desire to express his feelings in that way and subdue my own inclination to give him a lecture on basic human rights. In Muslims, we traditionally greet elders [:bawl:] by kissing the back of their hand and touching our forehead or eyes to it. Although its more common to hug and kiss on the cheeks. That way lies madness.
Diamonds: Muslims have a religious identity, therefore attempting to stifle their right to dress or gain education as they so choose is only going to create more tension. Imagine forcing Catholic students to attend public schools against their will. Imagine forcing nuns to uncover themselves. Respect and human decency are the only ways to move forward. Who said anything about stifling their dress? Where did you read that they should not have the right to an education? I am saying they have the right to an integrated education not an education that is exclusive to their group. Catholic schools are not paid for by the State. Oh so you think that being in an exclusive community like shown in Blackburn is a sign of each group respecting each other? Funny how you agree with American Klansman. Where is there no show of human decency in integration? Diamond:You are assuming that they choose not to communicate with the wider white community. This is not the case. Unfortunately many white British people don't want to understand Muslims. I am sure there are people on both sides whom are weary of each other, but most people among the Muslim community have no problems communicating with the white community in Britain. Indeed they have to, being a minority, the majority discourse is the norm and they are an exception. They don't have a choice. Well you heard some of the people that were integrated did any of them say they were interested in communicating with White society? No they spoke of the chasm. So white people are the ones who don't want to communicate, not the people who have a parade where they refuse to translate their banners into english and share the even with people who do not belong to their group? Diamonds: And I will blame anyone who supports racist and violent groups such as the BNP. This type of discourse which you are discusses right now was popular in America during the 70's, it lead to the rise of Neo-KKK groups, Neo-Nazis, and other groups which butchered African-Americans resulting in several violent riots because of the lack of police in protecting them from harm or arresting these people. You are assuming that the white British cannot be xenophobic, indeed they can be very xenophobic. Unfortunately, much of this is directed against Muslim women and children. therefore it is quite understandable for Muslims to be over-protective in a society of fear and racism. Diamonds people are voting BNP not because they are racist but because they are concerned about immigration, non integration and EU membership, corruption and they are sending a message by voting BNP if Labor or Conservative were addressing these issues then the BNP would not have won those seats. No one can talk about race. You assume racism where their is not, people get on their high horse and muster fake emotion to essentially not deal with a growing problem. What is the point of saying you are not racist and have no bias when you only see things from your groups point of view? You leave others no choice but to also see things only from their groups point of view since there is no common ground and no common legacy. All the other rubbish about KKK and so on and so forth has nothing to do with anything. Ask why people vote BNP don't assume. Don't assume nationalism is a sign of racism, unless of course I am supposed to look at Sam's declaration of 'proud to be indian' as a form of racism. Or maybe that's not it, maybe you think only non-whites have the right to be proud, which again is hypocritical nonsense. Diamond: No one chooses to live in ghettos and slums, they are forced into it. Either by the policies of the government or their own economic problems. Poor white British people do concern me, but the issues they face are of a different nature. Poverty everywhere is an injustice, and the government should concern itself with its eradication. However, it is a well established fact that some groups of people are economically disadvantaged than other groups. In the US it is whites and blacks, in the UK it is whites and Asians. They are choosing to live in those neighborhoods Diamond no one is forcing them there. After all when that gentleman in the video moved into a white neighborhood no on stopped him from doing so. Why would the poverty of whites be any different than that of non whites? Poverty is poverty and its the same for everyone. Diamond: The situation of the Muslims of the UK, is not only a religious problem, it is also contempt for their heritage, denial of political voice, economic disadvantage, and racism in the wider society. Many of these problems are the result of the divisive policies of the British government (esp under Blair), but many of these policies continue to this day. It is common to blame Muslims for their own problems, and this is the reason why many people won't understand the Muslims and why the situation will get only more precarious. This situation in the UK and elsewhere stems from a lack of intention to integrate and I don't see why you don't see this. You are assuming that its a contempt for their culture, most people don't know anything about their culture and how could they when these groups are living in their own world, a non mainstream world. No the narrative is not that Islam is a threat to the white world the narrative is that you cannot have one nation, a shared heritage and legacy if your immigrants after having lived in the nation for several generations refuses to integrate, when they see themselves as a world within a world, when they distance themselves and raise a non english flag. Its not good for the future of England and will cause a huge clash. Integration is about building common ground, right now there is no common ground. Diamond: I still don't understand, how does one become British? Is it by going to a pub every saturday and getting drunk? Painting a union jack on your belly in a football game? What exactly is being expected of Muslims? Oh what contempt you show for the british! What does a pakistani immigrant thinks it means to be british, wearing a full burkha, fying a foreign flag, speaking urdu? That line of reasoning can go both ways. I hope you are beginning to see how this works. I mean if you head towards your battle lines I will head back towards mine. All three of you, Sam, Emmz included play the moral high ground but at the end of the day you only care about your people and your culture. Sam doesn't lose any sleep over Israeli's I'm sure. I will not shed tears for people who are not concerned for mind that's simply being self-defeating and stupid Sam would agree with that. Diamond: The issue of the Muslim boy walking in a Muslim neighborhood with a white female schoolmate is a major issue with the Muslim community. The reason being that there is a stigma to Muslims children dating. It would similarly be the case, if a Muslim boy dated a Muslim girl. It is the issue of chastity, and the stigma attached to being unchaste. These are Muslim norms of behavior, they are not going to change anytime soon. If it had been a group of Muslim and white students, it would not have been a problem. How very broad minded. At least my boyfriend has dated out of his race but I forgot he's a racist and they are not. Diamond: Unfortunately this is the dominant Muslim fear. When Muslim women are abused and raped in the streets of white neighborhoods, or Muslim boys beaten up by BNP gangs, this will naturally create hostility and fear. For the Muslim community, this is a very real and scary issue, and in the protection of their community, they are being forced into isolation by both government policies which blame them as a community for terrorism and racist gangs who prey on weak Muslim children and women. In Denmark Danish women are raped by muslim men who believe they don't have to have any respect for them because they are not muslim. A muslim religious leader is reported to have said that any woman not wearing the veil was inviting rape. Stop trying to paint your group as a perpetual victim, as this is far from the truth. In the UK and in Denmark muslim gangs kick off just like the white ones and they are just as deviant and nasty get over yourself with this attitude it disingenuous unless of course you believe that all muslims are good and all non muslims are not good. Gangs don't prey on women and children they kick off with other gangs which are made up of young men who are just like they are save wearing different colors. Diamond: It was a religious parade. You will similarly find such parades in Jewish communities, waving Israeli flags. Hindu parades with their idols. The difference being the Jews are accepted and Muslims are not. Now if white British people took interest in their holidays and celebrations, as Muslims do on British holidays, this would accomplish a lot in the area of understanding and mutual harmony. The only request that was made was they speak in english and carry banners that are also translated in english and for years they have yet to comply. This is the issue. No one knows what the hell they're celebrating or if it is indeed a celebration and not a protest march. That is the difference. Diamond:
I attended a cross-cultural studies program and was based in Bangalore with the Media Center. I loved it. India is fascinating. I interned with Madhyam an Indian ngo that deals with women's issues. Which way lies madness with reason or emotion? I have never seen that display of respect but I would say that displays of respect are not a sign of weakness nor a sign of non-egalitarian its just acknowledges that everything is in its place and has a place, so the young defer to the old. I am actually surprised its still practiced.
I wasn't going to answer this but what the hell. No I date western men. I know of a few Western women who have date khmer men but I have yet to know of one that worked. Unless the man is wealthy there is an immediate contrast of wealth and then the whole thing boils down to money. There are also different expectations. Khmers prefer Khmers to marry Khmers. Khmer women are married off as virgins and its generally arranged through family or friends. I would date a khmer but he would have to be a western khmer from France preferably. I rent a fabulous apartment at the top of a house owned by a khmer doctor who lives there with his family, he's a pediatrician and a very wonderful man, they have been very good to me and I have always said that if I have to give up that apartment I would leave the country. I have been there for five years now and although I am quite strange as a western woman it all works itself out. It is a Khmer neighborhood with a vietnamese presence. There are now other westerners in the neighborhood as well. There is no definitive western neighborhood. We have Boeung Keng Kang also known as NGO land and there are westerners there as well as rich khmers but its mostly a collection of houses that are the offices of various ngo's. My friends are both expats and locals but mostly expats. In cambodia there are a variety of holidays since the khmers celebrate everything as long as it means a day off. So there is khmer new year, chinese new year and western new year. I sick to death of new years. There is P'Chum Ben the day of the dead where every khmer must go back to their 'homeland' the place of their birth and offer food and money to their dead ancestors or everything goes bad, bad luck for the ancestors and bad luck for them. Its mostly done for the ancestors who have debts to pay on the other side. Its a full three day holiday and most khmers spend the time at the pagoda participating in rituals. I have no dead in Cambodia. There is the water festival and I have done it once but avoid it at all costs since it consists of millions of khmers descending on Phnom Penh to watch boat races from their respective provinces in the presence of the king. I have seen the king once and he is short in addition to being gay. I hang out with my western friends (french, english, australian and a few americans) doing western things but there is always a khmer or two in our midst. There are not that many expats in Cambodia so we all know each other for better or worse. I always communicate in English as they all speak to me in English even if you speak to them in Khmer. Khmers all want to learn English as its important for them for work, english and chinese. I have a housekeeper and we rarely speak as she is usually gone by the time I wake up. I have one or two tuk tuk drivers whom I almost always use so they know me and I just get in because they know where I'm going anyway. Khmers know all the expats. Sometimes when i walk down the street in a part of the city I rarely frequent and I get motodops screaming 'Hello M' How are you? Where you go? I know you I know your house'. I know I don't know them but they all know me. People in my neighborhood knows all my business especially if I there is a change in boyfriend status, I know this because they always like the one before compared to the new one and they tell me so 'He no good'. there are a few expats french, english and american who have been there for 15 years or so. Some were there during the revolution left and returned with UNTAC. We have a french, australian and English expats but there is no community we are all scattered about living in our homes or apartments. We meet at the bar. No parent in their right mind would send their child or teenager to a khmer school because they are substandard, we have french schools, Montessori and two international schools. Wealthy khmers send their children to these schools.
BNP always comes across as being the National Front's "Political Wing". Extremism no matter what side it takes is still Extremism. Quite frankly for them to gain any seats is down to the lack of voters turning out and those that did, did so with an agenda. Increasing unemployment, the European courts ruling in favour of giving houses to immigrant squatters while people born in the country are made to pay for supporting the unemployed have been enough to cause some people to think that the BNP had a point. However they tend to neglect that the UK immigration policy could of been shaped with Europe, in the sense that perhaps the government of that period was paid periodically by european countries unwilling to take immigrants to aid in taking in immigrants, housing them, clothing them and educating them. Of course due to the corruption in the current politic systems and politicians in general, it would never come to light that ever immigrant has been a clandestine cash increase for politicians to misuse. Who says Slaver and the trade in humans is dead, all it has is Evolved.
