On integration and assimilation

Discussion in 'Politics' started by S.A.M., Jun 11, 2009.

  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I strongly suggest that these Muslims should move to Pakistan. They will be happy with the other mujahirs there.

    I have family there and I think those victims should move their butts once in a while rather than just sit around whining. They could start by educating themselves instead of loitering and stop fighting among themselves and recognise that they are Indians and need to be contributing to the society they live in.
     
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  3. DiamondHearts Registered Senior Member

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    Lucy, I just watched the BBC program entitled, "White Fright." It was very interesting and indeed pertinent to the discussion on this thread.

    However, I felt that it was mainly geared toward a white audience and in some parts, especially regarding niqab, it was alarmist. One other thing I noticed was the difference between classes among the Asians and white British. The white neighborhoods tended to be far more affluent than the Asian communities as shown from this program. There is a class struggle which also should discussed as that is also one of the main causes for a rift between majorities and minorities. Furthermore, what is British? What is Asian? There are whites who are Muslims, are they Asian or British? Is it just based on skin color, habits, or attendance of bars? I would say the Asians mentioned in this program are indeed British, and their culture is indeed British, and even their religion is British too. Islam is just as British as Christianity, and I don't believe it can be relegated as a foreign religion. Similarly, in many parts of the UK, Hindu and Sikh communities are the dominant Asian community. The situation is not that black-white, the Asians themselves are divided among linguistic, racial, and national lines. Bangalis look nothing like Pakistanis, and Indians are similarly different from Pakistanis. Many Pakistanis are of the white complexion, and some are tanned white (like Italians and Greeks). Exactly where do you draw the line?

    The British people interviewed in this program seemed almost exclusively to hold negative opinions of Asians and Islam, and it was also revealed that they felt the Asians should completely assimilate (leave their previous culture behind) and forget their mother tongues. I am quite sure that the majority of British people do not have this view of Asian people. It is also quite interesting that from what I have heard, Asians in Irish or Scottish areas have a more pleasurable stay in the UK than English areas. Yet these people seem mainly from poor backgrounds from South Asia, and a significant portion of the Pakistani community are Kashmiri refugees from India's heavy-handed occupation of their lands.

    This program was interesting, nonetheless. I would be interested to see such a program from a Muslim perspective and perhaps explaining the economic rifts in the area.
     
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  5. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    How is it alarmist concerning the veil? All some people said was that they find it difficult to get to know someone through when they are wearing the veil, they don't feel the person is accessible in terms of meeting them. Now the veil may seem normal to you but from someone outside that particular culture it is something unusual. I think it was quite balanced. It showed how these two groups are growing apart in the same area, each group has less and less contact and interaction all the time, it was the same for the Asians as for the Whites. Also I didnt see the whites as being that more affluent, the one gentleman who moved out of an exclusively Asian neighborhood to a different community so his children can benefit from integration lived in a very nice house. Some of the whites who were moving from one neighborhood because they felt the neighborhood was becoming more and more Asian all the time with closed pubs they used to frequent etc., these houses were being purchased by Asians. If there was a great economic disparity they wouldn't have been able to buy the homes at all so I disagree with you there. I found it interesting that when the young Pakistani guy said he walked through the neighborhood with his white female friend that neighborhood reacted with coolness and gave off a threatening vibe. He said he feared for her safety not his own.

    You say that the piece was geared towards a white audience yet they feature both community perspectives not just that of whites, unless you mean to suggest that Asian communities do not watch the BBC. They spoke to people both Asian and white, I thought it showed both sides of the coin, both communities perspectives.

    The communities were obviously ethnically concentrated with either all white or all Pakistani so if there were white muslims living in their neighborhood which would have been minority anyway it would not have mattered. Obviously there were not any non-muslims living in those areas for too long which is the point.

    Islam is not just as British as Christianity.

    The documentary is not about race its about religion and ethnicity. To have a parade where people speak a foreign language praising a god and no one understands what it is they are celebrating, having schools where English is a second language, waving flags from Pakistan instead of England does not help prove your statement that they are just as 'british' in fact those displays suggest the opposite.

    I feel as if we did not watch the same video because none of the white people interviewed said anything negative about the Asians, they said what the Asians said which is that there is no real mixing and interaction. Hell there was even a separate taxi company to service the two communities! I too believe that the Asians should assimilate, they can still practice a religion etc but to be so separate from the HOST culture is detrimental to them in the long run as we can see now that the BNP has won two seats. The point is that their lack of integration is not good for England.

    Diamonds: I am quite sure that the majority of British people do not have this view of Asian people.

    What view?

    Oh Diamond I think you will find that the Scottish and Irish are not too far from the English. What you seem to do is not give any slack to the English as if it were up to them to bend towards the minority who represent a non-british culture when the reverse is true.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2009
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  7. DiamondHearts Registered Senior Member

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    It's a matter of perspective. I believe it is fueled not only by this impersonality but prejudice and lack of knowledge. Also it is not normal for me, I know very few women who actually wear the niqab, nor is it common in Pakistan. However, we should respect the wishes of the women to dress as they feel is appropriate. Don't forget that the virgin Mary also used to wear the full covering, and Christian nus also cover themselves. In Islam, every women is a nun and every man is monk, that's the basic difference. I think this would make it easier to understand.

    It's mainly based on economics. As far from what I observed, the Asian communities tended to be poorer and their houses were smaller and closer together. The man who moved into a white neighborhood, definitely seemed to have a better house than those visited in the Asian neighborhoods. In England, this is quite common and many Asians live in slums and ghettos. Many times, it is not even by choice they they are isolated to their communities. Other times it is fear of losing their children to alcohol, drugs, gangs, and violence. That Saturday night pub seen which was shown would make any Muslim parent uneasy. I was very surprised by the fear-mongering and lack of knowledge which those white British residents stated about Asians. It reminds me of precisely the way African Americans are treated in the US. My point is that the situation is much more complex than it was portrayed.

    From demographics of the Asian community of England, comparing their pay, education, and employment, they are a depressed minority. I don't believe people chose to be poor, it is their circumstances which force them to live this way. Economic disparity is always a problem among different groups, wherever in the world one may be.

    They did, but it still rather obvious, to me atleast, that the situation was portrayed from a white viewpoint, a dominant narrative. I have seen worse reports than this, so I am not complaining. Yet, I feel this program could have benefited from discussing the economics of the region and the views of more Muslim residents. It seemed that all residents interviewed agreed that they had a problem, the whites said that the Asians don't embrace British culture, but we never heard a Muslim response to this. The reporting was alarmist, and I imagine that is the general mood of the white population whom were fleeing from the town.

    I am sure there are Non-Muslims living in the Muslim areas, just as some Muslims are living in the Non-Muslim areas. The issues are never black and white, there are always other sides to the issue. Several years ago in Brooklyn, African American Muslims began moving into a particular neighborhood, establishing a mosque. Many of the neighbors were alarmed at the incident and complaints to the police were common. Then something extraordinary happened, the immigration of Muslims in the community led to a decrease of crime, theft, prostitution, and drugs. Many of the Non-Muslim residents began flocking to this neighborhood and eventually this resulted in not only conversion to Islam from many African-Americans (esp. former drug addicts and criminals) but neighbors, but mutual harmony between the Muslims and Non-Muslims of the area.

    British Muslims are British and they follow Islam. They don't feel their religion is anti-British or foreign. The response you would get from these people would be the same. Islam is indeed British, because many British people are Muslims. It is when we view Islam as a threat or with suspicion, that prejudice arise. When Jews entered Europe, they were treated much the same, albeit much worse in those days. It took the Holocaust for them to be accepted as Europeans, let's hope it doesn't take such a thing for Muslims to be finally viewed as Europeans.

    Sub in Jew for Muslim, and Israel for Pakistan. This debate has been held numerous times, in Germany it lead to the Holocaust. Jews were seen as not fully European in many nations of Europe.

    I think the problem those outside the Muslim communities of the UK have with the Muslims there is their attachment to their home countries and their religion. Is it not possible for a British citizen to have pride for both being British and being Pakistani? Or are both of these nationalities opposed to each other. If so, then we should study why would the British be opposed to Pakistan and Islam.


    Well the difference is that, as I've heard an African-American once tell me, minorities in any country speak two languages, even us. I found the quote rather hilarious, but it illustrated exactly the problem. A segment of the majority wishes to impose on the minority their way of life. The minority, where ever he may be, lives two lives. Often this is difficult for many people to grasp. The discourse of the majority is always the dominant discourse, because many times the wills and aspirations of the minorities are seen as petty or undesirable. It's a power struggle, related to class and race. I believe that people should live the way they choose, if it is to go to an Islamic private school or a Catholic school, it is their choice to do so. If they feel safe in an area surrounded by people of their own background and close to their religious centers, they, and only they, should be able to decide what is best for them.

    That being both loyal to their mother culture and their British nationality is acceptable.

    Well, the problems are those of economic, power, and class divisions, exasperated by religious differences and a climate of domestic terrorism and foreign occupation of Muslim lands.

    I simply want to ask you some simple questions:

    What classifies exactly as British? Is it a white skin complexion, watching football, drinking at a pub, dancing in a night club, eating fish and chips? How exactly can Asians become British?

    Are people who hold political views opposite to the majority of British people British? Are Communists, Libertarians, Anarchists, Marxists, Socialists, etc British? If so, why are Muslims with different political views alone said to be un-British?

    Are those people who have sympathy for a cause, Palestinian, Kashmiri, Chechnyan freedom movements, British, even if the policy of government opposes the self-determination of these people? If they are politically opposed to a British foreign policy and are vocal about it, should they be silenced, criticized, and abused?

    If they don't believe the official story of 9/11 or 7/7, can they then not be British? If white American and white British citizens have questions of these events and still represent their nationality, why is it that if Muslims question such an event, they are terrorist sympathesizers or holding radical views?

    These issues are multi-faceted and extremely complex, entailing a myriad of issues including race, class difference, economics, suspicion, political isolation, hate crimes, cultures, and languages. The victimization on the Muslim mind is deep, I can think of no other community with such a depressing psyche than the Native Americans of the US. Psychology is important in this context, many, if not all Muslim nations were occupied by European foreign powers, and many have deep scars from this experiences because of massacres and subjugation of their people. I suppose part of the hostility can be explained by this. American and NATO occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq are very sensitive issues for most Muslims, and it reminds the Muslim mind of the suffering of their colonial exploitation 60 years ago.
     
  8. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    You are a bold-faced liar. Daniel Pipes did nothing of the sort.

    It's very sad indeed that Muslims must constantly lie to support their cult.
     
  9. superstring01 Moderator

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    No. Because westerners do a horrible job of abandoning their culture.

    Besides, you're not comparing apples to apples. What the British in Britain want of people who immigrate into their country has nothing to do with the British who emigrate to other nations.

    It would be hypocritical if the British adopted a policy of required assimilation for their country and then protested when Brits are required to assimilate into other nations. But this isn't the case. What Britons do when they go to other countries has nothing to do with what policies they adopt at home. If the sundry Anglo communities that do exist in other nations (i.e. Singapore, Guadalajara-Mex., Buenos Aires-Arg., and
    São Paolo-Brz.) don't integrate, then that's the policy that's allowed in those nations. If those nations have a problem with it, then they can act on it. But whether or not expat Brits do or don't assimilate well has nothing to do with what the UK wants of people who visit.

    ~String
     
  10. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, except that Europe has a history of such policies leading to pogroms. You'd think they'd realise that if they want a white Christian Britain the best way to achieve that would be to take in only people like them. Why pretend to be liberal or multicultural? That way, other countries can also decide how monotonous monocultural they want to be and everyone can feel happy living in discrete communities frozen in time, without resorting to the occasional genocide of native born foreigners.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2009
  11. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Europe is liberal but not all European nations are multicultural, pretend to be multicultural or want to be multicultural. Its the same in other nations where they may be multicultural but not liberal. I see nothing wrong with this. Also I don't see a reason why host populations should have to be the ones to change their society, immigrants seem to resent having to integrate, they resent any suggestion that they would have to change anything or that anything they do may be an imposition on the host society so why should the host society accommodate them.

    Diamonds i will answer your post later.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2009
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Then they are not liberal. A true liberal does not choose a point of view that undermines personal liberty for another


     
  13. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    They are not denying personal liberty. They are advocating social or community cohesion and an agreement of fundamental values and the right to protect certain cultural identity which is their right as host.

    There are a lot of rules that undermine personal liberty in a free liberal society. For example I am not allowed to walk around with a beer can if its not in a brown paper bag in NY. I am also not allowed to play my music blaring at 3am if I am having a party because it disturbs my neighbors. I may find it a personal liberty to walk around naked but that one seems to be 'undermined' as well. Go figure. Even liberal societies have local standards. If they do not want to adhere to local standards they should simply go back to where they come from.

    You know in that video, don't know if you watched it, they say they are british but have the Pakistani flag fying on their rooftops, they go to school and English is a second language. I personally feel that if they want to be that separate and if they cannot bear to integrate they should go back to Pakistan. And no I don't find that unreasonable.
     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    They are exporting people born in the country [or intending to] for holding different views . It would be like the democrats exporting the conservatives in the US.

    Or Indians exporting Indian Jews for celebrating Hanukkah or Indian Christians for celebrating Christmas, or Americans exporting American Irishmen for wearing a shamrock and painting the Chicago river green.

    Sorry, no matter what you call it, I see it as extremely ethnocentric and xenophobic. The very fact that white people in Britain [for example] move out of neighborhoods where Asians are moving in, will result in neighborhoods where minorities will become communalised. And thats how ghettoes are created.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2009
  15. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    DIAMONDS:

    The virgin mary and what she is depicted as wearing or not wearing is besides the point, hooded nuns are not the issue and its A red herring argument The point of the video is to try and build a bridge between two groups that are not inherently bad but cannot communicate and integrate with each other. You seem to not want to attempt to understand the perspective of the members of the host society. If that’s the case then you shouldn’t whinge and whine if these people communicate through the BNP as that would be considered a ‘matter of perspective’. If these non integrated groups further alienate themselves and and insist on alienating themselves then not only does it become impossible to bridge the gap between the two groups they shouldn’t complain if they are further and further resented and marginalized.

    There are a lot of poor whites so the fact that there are poor Asians doesn’t concern me unless you are also concerned about the poverty of poor whites. On the one hand you claim everyone is a Brit, but at every turn you show that your concern is only for the welfare of people that are Muslim and dismiss the concerns of non-muslims. This being the case I see no reason at all why whites as you put it should give a toss about anything that affects the Asian community. Do you see how this lack of having a common perspective is bad for the future of the nation? Poverty and unemployment affects everyone and if everyone were under ‘one flag’ they would see it as a problem to all. They live in slums and ghettos because they are not integrating.

    If Muslim parents are made to feel uneasy about a night out then they don’t have to allow their children to participate but if they feel that their values are diametrically opposed to those of the host country then they should leave. I see absolutely no comparison at all between black americans and this group of asians in england. By comparison black and white americans have more interaction than the two communities shown in the film. Go into a bar in the irish community in the Rockaway’s in Queens where black and whites live side by side you will ALWAYS see a black person in an Irish bar. They talk, their kids go to school together and the work together, they don’t always like each other, they may not even be friends with each other, they may continually use grand expletives to describe each other but they certainly live closer than what is portrayed in that community.

    Since Muslim Asians are still a minority in the country how can they have a ‘dominant narrative’ in terms of public debate in a BBC program? We did hear a Muslim response you just haven’t chosen to listen to it. The response of one young man seemed to be that he wouldn’t feel comfortable being in the house of a white person, the response of the guy who walked his white female schoolmate through his neighborhood was that she was not welcome there. The guy who moved out of the ethnic enclave did so because he didn’t want his children living in a marginalized world outside of the dominant culture where they would feel uncomfortable among whites. I commend him for that.

    This isn’t about whether muslims follow Islam or not, its about whether they allow themselves on a social cultural level to merge with British culture so you don’t have this tension which is sure to kick off one day in a very very bad way.

    Why do you guys keep clinging to the holocaust? No one wants to build camps for you, even the worst racist would simply advocate having them deported back to whatever country. Don’t worry you won’t have the badge on you lapel like the Jews did. Anyway many Jews in Europe at that time were integrated into the society. This is a question of integration stop pretending as if anyone is persecuting you.

    Diamond: Is it not possible for a British citizen to have pride for both being British and being Pakistani?

    Interesting you should ask. I was wondering why they were marching in a parade and excluded all non muslims watching by not speaking in English. I wondered why they raised the Pakistani flag and not the union jack or even both. They carry every aspect of a foreign culture with the exception of their accent. Having and accent doesn’t make someone representative of a particular nation. The minority was not living two lives, they were not engaging in the larger community at all so how can you say they are living two lives?

    For the purposes of this discussion I will not address Afghanistan and Iraq as it has nothing to do with the threads theme.

    Diamond: Are people who hold political views opposite to the majority of British people British? Are Communists, Libertarians, Anarchists, Marxists, Socialists, etc British? If so, why are Muslims with different political views alone said to be un-British?

    Being British is not about political affiliation its about culture.

    Diamond: Are those people who have sympathy for a cause, Palestinian, Kashmiri, Chechnyan freedom movements, British, even if the policy of government opposes the self-determination of these people? If they are politically opposed to a British foreign policy and are vocal about it, should they be silenced, criticized, and abused?

    Being British is not about political affiliation its about culture

    Diamond: If they don't believe the official story of 9/11 or 7/7, can they then not be British? If white American and white British citizens have questions of these events and still represent their nationality, why is it that if Muslims question such an event, they are terrorist sympathesizers or holding radical views?

    Being British is not about political perspectives its about culture
     
  16. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    No for not embracing the culture, for holding themselves apart and not attempting to see themselves as part of a greater culture. I find it interesting that both you and Diamond tend to think of this in terms of political affiliation, like democrat and democracy. This is not about political affiliation, no one cares if they vote tory or labor because this is about culture.

    Actually I am now to think that its the muslims who are being xenophobic and ethnocentric. If they are open to other people why do they live all together in their own communities? Why don't they want to integrate with non muslim whites? Why are they threatened by a white woman walking through their streets as was shown in the Panorama video? Why is the pakistani flag being flown in their neighborhoods and not the union jack or both pakistani and english flags? Why is it they only marry each other? Why don't they send their kids to integrated schools?

    Watch the 'white fright' video by the BBC. I am curious to what you think.

    Right now I am forming the opinion that if integration doesn't take place there will be further resentment. I am beginning to think that non integrated muslims will not do well in Europe in the future is they see themselves as separate. I also think there may be reason to believe that these groups are unable to integrate and mix and so are not good candidates for living in many european countries. I think we really have to consider immigration in the future and put a stop to it until they can absorb the ones they have.
     
  17. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Cause and effect. There is a China town in almost every major city in the US. There is a China gate, Chinese people galore,Chinese food, Chinese signs, Chinese shops run by Chinese people, Chinese temples, gods etc.

    Now according to you, the white people feeling threatened by this and wanting to eradicate this "foreign culture" are liberal. I bet if these Chinese people faced that kind of attitude it would have an impact on how they interacted with the rest of the people.

    As it were, the Chinatowns are colorful and fascinating and a part of the American culture.

    If you don't like that example, I can give you the one about Anglo communities in India. Or a certain "Jewish and democratic" state
     
  18. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    But the Chinese do not remove themselves from mainstream society. There children become undoubtedly american just read Amy Tan. Also there isn't anything about Chinese culture that conflicts or clashes with host societies, they tend better than any group in the world to live in other countries without setting themselves completely apart, they intermarry, they dress like everyone else, they learn the language, they integrate at schools etc.. I don't believe that all cultures mix well together, it may not be politically correct to say but I do think some cultures simply have an allergic reaction to each other.

    We are not discussing Anglo communities in India. If you wanted to bring a comparison you would also have to bring all the dynamics that make India so different from England or Europe. By the way what is your opinion about the BBC video?

    Please Sam address these questions:

    Actually I am now to think that its the muslims who are being xenophobic and ethnocentric. If they are open to other people why do they live all together in their own communities? Why don't they want to integrate with non muslim whites? Why are they threatened by a white woman walking through their streets as was shown in the Panorama video? Why is the pakistani flag being flown in their neighborhoods and not the union jack or both pakistani and english flags? Why is it they only marry each other? Why don't they send their kids to integrated schools?

    Its absolutely unfair of you to describe Europeans as ethnocentric and xenophobic and not address it in immigrants.
     
  19. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    They don't face discrimination. If they did they would become radicalised. Since you brought up the dress, language, school and marriage, I'll give you the Anglo communities in India. They set up churches, buy the land around it and give it only to Anglos or other Christians, they have convent schools where everyone prays a Christian prayer and is educated by nuns and priests in the English language, Hindi is usually taught as a second language and only for a few years. They wear western clothing, speak English or Portuguese, rarely know or understand Hindi or the local language fluently and marry mostly among themselves [now in cities like Mumbai, you see some intermarriage, but with similar people from other religions].

    If the Indians kicked them out, I would not consider it a liberal act.

    What immigrants? They are born in the effing country. They are no more immigrant than the Anglos
     
  20. takandjive Killer Queen Registered Senior Member

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    The Chinese faced a LOT of discrimination back during the Railroad Era. Chinese American cuisine is nothing like actual Chinese food. (I will put both down my gob with glee.) The Chinese are a highly adaptable people.
     
  21. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah I noticed that while ordering food in China town. We had to get a translation of the Chinese menu and then explain it to the nonEnglish speaking waitress.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  22. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    I have been to china town in NY and San Francisco and never had such problems. Maybe culturally Europe and the States doesn't have an allergic reaction to the Chinese.

    But what of these questions and the points that I have made.

    Actually I am now to think that its the muslims who are being xenophobic and ethnocentric. If they are open to other people why do they live all together in their own communities? Why don't they want to integrate with non muslim whites? Why are they threatened by a white woman walking through their streets as was shown in the Panorama video? Why is the pakistani flag being flown in their neighborhoods and not the union jack or both pakistani and english flags? Why is it they only marry each other? Why don't they send their kids to integrated schools?

    Its absolutely unfair of you to describe Europeans as ethnocentric and xenophobic and not address it in immigrants.
     
  23. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    I know Chinese food has been westernized to make it palatable to whatever region they are in which is why what you find in a chinese restaraunt in NY you won't find in England etc.

    I agree the chinse are adaptable.
     

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