On Chivalry and Sexual Violence

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Jan 9, 2020.

  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member


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    To the one, as Jeeves↑ noted, there are popular definitions in play, and therein we find something about culture and code. More particularly, that occasion with that guy I know, the word came up along the way, a few times.

    Part of the reason for juxtaposing such assertions of "chivalry" and sexual violence, of holding doors and rape culture, is that, yeah, it might sometimes seem hard to explain in any given moment, but it is true that life in human society will eventually hand us an example. And in this case, it's not an utterly obscure, dead-end example.

    Furthermore, the word comes up, from time to time. An example from 2012↱:

    MRAs, by and large, aren’t big fans of chivalry, and complain bitterly about the terrible injustices forced upon them by this archaic concept, like having to hold doors open for ladies from time to time.

    But perhaps they are not considering the many fine benefits of chivalry. In the comments section of Alcuin’s pro-patriarchy blog, our traditionalist friend fschmidt recently set forth the case for chivalry in a way that even the dullest misogynist could appreciate:

    In early western culture around the time of the Renaissance, chivalry meant that ladies should be honored and sluts should be raped. This is a totally sound concept and encourages good behavior on the part of women. You cannot expect women to behave if they are not rewarded for good behavior and punished for bad behavior.

    And because Futrelle has been taking those notes for a decade, it's not merely a fast-forward to 2017↱, when he covered MRA/DVA Paul Elam denouncing chivalry after a man harassing a Muslim woman on a train escalated, stabbing to death two men who intervened. "Two more good men killed by chivalry," Elam warned. "Let this be a lesson to your sons." Indeed, he would justify some element of the murders by observing, "no one was being physically attack[ed] till the white knights showe up".

    And if we can think of a group of so-called usual suspects, just covering the places to look will provide myriad examples, such as a few months before↱ the killed by chivalry post, Futrelle had occasion to parse a particular difference: "Granted, 'white knighting' is not the same as feminism; it’s a rather patronizing form of 'chivalry.'" This distinction arose in considering a would-be MRA movement arguing that male lives matter, a clever notion given that nobody had ever heard of mocking the #BlackLivesMatter movement°°. Given how smart they are, or not, we really ought not be so surprised to read that, "The reason some women are so shitty and entitled is because they're spoiled by the way betas and white knights treat them". After all, it's not news that the insecure men who can't tell the difference between "special treatment", and basic human decency like to tell themselves, "The truth is, most women want the alpha males."°°°

    If I point to 2016↱, it reminds how much there is to cover, as Futrelle leads with his puzzlement at having missed something from 2015—

    The site launched the campaign on Facebook with an inadvertently hilarious mini MANifesto:

    Manism. This is to remind us of the forgotten gender, who, regardless of the situation, are expected to be such gentlemen.


    When women talk about being put on the same pedestal as men, simultaneously there is an unsaid expectation of chivalry out of them. It is time we realize that they deserve a break from being all heroic and they too suffer a different level of harassment.

    —and it really is rather unbelievable, except it happened, and it is interesting to note who the multicultural masculinist campaign out of India targeted for what questions. One of the complaints is about men buying drinks for women at bars, or bars trying to attract female customers. I actually do remember taking seriously, at some point, years ago, complaints about "ladies' night" being discriminatory, and to this day I wonder why the men were complaining. And as to men buying women drinks, talk to the men, don't complain that you've been "mancriminated". But, yes, it's a prettyish white male face telling women he doesn't have to hold the door, or hold the bags, or give over his seat, and if we stop to think about it, who the hell is going to date someone that petty, so who the hell is he talking to when he says, "You want gender equality? Take it." And not quite weirdly°°°°, it sounds like, well, just this guy, y'know, who makes up fictitious people for lecturing and issuing stern talking points to, because he doesn't know how to say it about the real people he actually wants to denounce; vis à vis, it's really, really weird. But, to be clear, this guy is different from the first, that guy I know, in the topic post, and, as the first footnote is already written, they are yet separate from the other, recalled below. No, really, life does hand me examples.

    As matters of code and culture, we find diverse pop-subcultural assertions of colloquial but thematically intertwined commonality. Part of the blur about code and culture has to do with the point that these particular men aren't putting much thought into their bawls about chivalry. And in a global market context, one of the most prominent things about the difference between the Indian presentation and what we hear in the U.S. is the occasional syntactical deviation, like, "If woman loses her job", juxtaposed with, "If a man loses his job"; or the part about "Even product discriminate", which goes on to complain that, "Short men don't have heels. Ugly men don't have makeup. Stupid men can't be blonde." As ridiculous as the whole campaign was, I can't help notice the lack of a plural. Then again, if I wonder about the lack of an article preceding the word, "woman", in the one juxtaposition, I am, at least functionally, asserting Freudian slip within the context of a postfreudian psychoanalytic meaning of history, which circles right back to thematic consistency°°°°°.

    But otherwise, yes, the absurd stupidity is thematically consistent throughout. Diverse, contemporary iterations of chivalry, framed as an anti-identification—counterargument, an assertion against, a response, a reaction—come back to blaming women. Or woman.

    Still, the mancrimination question seems to be more mgtow than MRA, and if I'm skipping out on Nazis, it's because it's more implicit than anything else, so they don't call it chivalry. To the other, we can try subsuming it under men being men, but even then we don't necessarily know what Rotunno meant.

    Even if it's not the kind of thing one goes looking for in the news, it has a way of coming up. But, yeah, life has a way of handing us the examples, and the chivalry defined in these is, of course, something of a pathetic joke, and, y'know, we try to ignore it as much as we can, but every now and then it just sort of lands in front of us.
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  3. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Notes on #61↑

    ° And toward prominent or influential examples, life recently handed me another one, and I can think of a time when this other guy I know gave a circumstantial tiptoe of an answer around the question of how much harassment is acceptable for the sake of, in that moment, political need, but couldn't really describe what that actually meant, which was problematic. Eventually, we got something of an example, and from none other than Joe Biden. While that has nothing to do with chivalry, per se, it is a reminder that life will provide the examples.

    °° Especially those pesky advocates of lawless police violence; at least they were decent enough human beings to never go complaining that, #BlueLivesMatter, or anything so stupid, right? I mean, that would be really, really unprofessional if they did, and very discouraging toward any expectation of proper justice through law enforcement.

    °°° It remains yet uncertain whether this includes alphas who are too macho to wipe their asses↱. I mean, sure, we get that people seek empowerment, and that a lot of this idiocy reflects the desperation that has possessed their lives, but when you're so alpha you won't do her "doggy-style" because it's too gay—when you won't put your penis in her vagina because it's too gay—the best we can say, when circumstance allows, is, at least he installed a bidet. No, really, not all of them do. But, seriously, compared to that kind of alphaness, the guy who feels amogged at church because a new member of the congregation has better biceps than he does starts to sound, well, never mind; I digress.

    °°°° That's complicated.

    °°°°° We could try Markale, Ferenczi, and the joke about the blind man and the fishmonger.​

    Futrelle, David. "Killed by Chivalry: Everything wrong with the Men's Rights Movement in one Tweet". We Hunted The Mammoth. 30 May 2017. WeHuntedTheMammoth.com. 13 January 2020. http://bit.ly/2sk2cun

    —————. "'Male Lives Matter' activists are inventing new logical fallacies one dumb meme at a time". We Hunted The Mammoth. 16 February 2017. WeHuntedTheMammoth.com. 13 January 2020. http://bit.ly/35MjeyT

    —————. "Memeday: Don’t MANcriminate me, ma’am!" We Hunted The Mammoth. 22 April 2016. WeHuntedTheMammoth.com. 13 January 2020. http://bit.ly/2RbS2Vc

    —————. "Return of the Son of the Dudes Who Don’t Wipe Their Asses Because They Think it’s Gay". We Hunted The Mammoth. 10 January 2020. WeHuntedTheMammoth.com. 13 January 2020. http://bit.ly/2QODf3z

    —————. "The Case for Chivalry (Note: It's really, really rapey.)". We Hunted The Mammoth. 4 February 2012. WeHuntedTheMammoth.com. 13 January 2020. http://bit.ly/2NmVRpA

    —————. We Hunted The Mammoth. "Why the Ask The Red Pill subreddit is such a pathetic parade of insecurity and awfullness". 8 September 2015. WeHuntedTheMammoth.com. 13 January 2020. http://bit.ly/2Y3HHxL

    See Also:

    Markale, Jean. The Celts: Uncovering the Mythic and Historic Origins of Western Culture. 1976. Rochester: Inner Traditions International, 1993.

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  5. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    Anyone else think it's about time for a really big FLOOD?
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  7. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    With Cosby, legal action was first taken back in 2005, by Andrea Constand (
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Cosby_sexual_assault_cases ); however, there were already multiple allegations against him dating back to the 1980's. There were also reported payoffs and such much earlier than 2005. Specific details are within the link, but given that there are dozens of victims, it's a pretty convoluted mess.

    The problem here is the appalling history of our legal system, with respect to it's handling of rape and sexual assault--at best, it's merely ineffective; at worst, it's criminally counter-effective, i.e., secondary rape <<<. And when one considers that false allegations of rape are extremely rare, the implicit bias of the legal system becomes even more apparent.

    That said, as with Trump and others, it may very well be a matter of people not caring as opposed to not knowing.
  8. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    Yup. That's the kernel of the problem. Whichever apologetics are used in a given case; whichever legal loophole is cited; whichever Supreme Court Judge is appointed in spite of the evidence, the thing in the center is: too many just don't give a damn.
  9. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Exactly. "He was a product of his upbringing and environment - and really, who isn't? Sure, he made some questionable choices, but HE didn't think it was rape. I mean, look how old and sorry he looks."
  10. Bells Staff Member

    What do you mean?

    We are already in the "what next?" stage.

    In other words, this has worked for a very long time. They won a long time ago.

    Let me ask you this..

    Aside from two serial abusers being charged and some powerful men being outed as being serial abusers, what has changed in the last decade with #MeToo? More awareness and women came forward? Okay.

    Now what?

    Aside from abusers and harassers becoming political fodder - where people were willing to excuse it for the sake of politics, just as the very same people who wore the "Time's Up" pins at award shows remained silent for decades while they knew that Weinstein was harassing and sexually assaulting women....

    Now what? What happens now?

    The reason I ask is this is because not much has changed.

    What you are defining as a "culture-defining question" has been in existence for decades now. No one really bothered to look..
  11. billvon Valued Senior Member

    What's changed is that:
    1) women are more likely to speak out about what has happened to them
    2) those stories are more likely to be promulgated
    3) men are more likely to be prosecuted for those acts

    Do we have a ways to go? Definitely. But we are headed in the right direction. Just look at the outrage by the GOP and by men's groups about the Me Too movement - their outrage is a strong sign of progress.
    Truck Captain Stumpy likes this.
  12. Truck Captain Stumpy The Right Honourable Reverend Truck Captain Valued Senior Member

  13. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    I think also more men taking sides. Many who have stood aside, watching what they were convinced was a triumphant march of progress: the liberation, then empowerment of women, as evidenced by strong female leaders, strong female voices the world over. Now - in the last few years - they've been made aware of the underside of their liberal societies. They still don't know what to do about it, aside from supporting the legal system and such administrative changes (however controversial) as are made in universities and work-places and speaking out, as and when they get the opportunity, against macho shitheads*.

    Quite a lot has changed and is changing. But it's not assimilated into the culture - and may not be.
    Hence my question.
    A great big historical turning-point like a world war takes a decade to build up and play out, yet is noted down in history as a single event. The changes it produces in the affected cultures are not recognized for another decade and it takes a further two decades to integrate those changes. Sometimes much longer: the cultural effects a crusade or civil war may not be quantifiable for a century.

    Of course it [the question] has. The answer is as yet unknown. The struggle I've been personally involved in has lasted fifty years to date ---
    in fairness, however, women's rights are only part of that cultural struggle: it includes the treatment of minorities of every kind. I know women are not a numerical minority in North America, but in 1960, they were a political and economic minority - while also constituting a powerful force in the majority that oppressed, and still oppresses, some marginalized and vilified groups. Sorting that out isn't simple, and it doesn't happen in a viral tweet of a single march.

    A respectable hill, if not actual mountain of printed matter testifies to the contrary.

    In any war, there are a few decisive battles, on which the outcome depends. In any long struggle - which is what cultural transformation is - there are crucial points, when major questions are decided in a single confrontation. I believe the ----
    give me a second to take a long swig ---- Trump Presidency ---- is one ---- such turning point -----
    ---- back later ----
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  14. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    I don't know, it seems the more things ''change,'' the more they stay the same, when it comes to misogyny, patriarchy and how our culture reacts to powerful men with money.
  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

    I've seen more women come forward both in the media and personally with their own stories of sexual assault. In addition, the story is slowly changing away from "if you have enough money/power you can make it all go away." I am hopeful that the more this happens, the more women will come forward immediately after an assault or rape - which will be a big step forward.
  16. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    That's because you haven't been around long enough to recall when you couldn't get a mortgage without your husband's - who, btw, had the legal right to rape you and the, unwritten but recognized by most cops, right to 'keep you in line' - signature. The term 'sexual harassment' hadn't even been invented - gawping, joshing and even a certain amount of pawing were simply part of office life, college life - if you couldn't handle it, you stayed home and had babies.
    Also, Jews and Blacks (by a different name) were barred from gentlemen's clubs, most universities, lots of restaurants and and even some trade unions. Don't ask what happened to "sexual deviates".
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  17. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    The first two, certainly--but do we have any evidence for the latter? Last I checked, conservative estimates for the rape kit backlog put it at around half a million.

    Also, we've got at least 60 million people (in the U.S.) who knowingly voted for a serial rapist.
  18. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    That, there, is the pivot-point.
    Other atrocities he's carried out in full view of the world since taking office are also enjoying the approval of 40% of Americans.
    Trump will pass, one way or another. That 40% won't. Do they take all the marbles? That's the question.
  19. Truck Captain Stumpy The Right Honourable Reverend Truck Captain Valued Senior Member

    well, considering the average success rate for prosecution is up and reporting of sexual assaults (the parent category which contains the subset of rape) is also up, then yes, there is evidence for the latter (See BJS statistics link above).
    We also know that there is still much to do since we have at least one study indicating that only about 25% of crimes are reported ( https://www.rainn.org ) except in the US military, where the greater numbers of reports, prosecutions and convictions come from (DOD Fiscal Year 2014 Annual Report on Sexual Assault in the Military). One of the biggest problems with reporting and prosecution is still the same state law issue with varying definitions and systems, however, a fair number have also removed the statute of limitations on most sex crimes.

    as for the conservative number of backlog rape kits, that is mostly down to funding and the prosecution (and their lack of willingness to push for priority, for whatever reason, usually revolving around prosecution success rates). at least the funding issue has recently changed, at least per the news ( https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-signs-bill-eliminate-backlog-rape-kit-testing/story?id=67997113 ).
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Well, as far as I can tell, the number of assault reports that result in charges, and the conviction rate once the trial starts, haven't changed much. (20% and 35% respectively.) So we have a long way to go. But since reporting rates are going up (22% increase in NYC in the past 2017-2018) the likelihood of a rapist being prosecuted is going up as well.
    Truck Captain Stumpy likes this.
  21. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 70 years old Valued Senior Member

    Hollywood springs to mind and the casting couch

    And from the latest Oscars - it seems Bette Midler complained no female director was nominated, and then went further saying women should have their own Osc-hers

    Can't win

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  22. Bells Staff Member

    So there has been a massive increase in prosecution?

    The issue is that women did speak up beforehand. They were just either ignored, called liars and sluts/whores/bitches and/or fired.

    So what has changed for the better now? The women aren't fired? Okay... Were the women re-hired after all these men were called out? No. Were the men prosecuted? Only Weinstein and Cosby were. None of the other powerful men were. In fact, one was voted into the Oval Office and the other was voted onto the Supreme Court, and his victim was slut shamed repeatedly by those who run your country. Then of course comes the other side of the political equation where one serial abuser was forced to resign and his victims also slut shamed and the blame for the other abuser being voted into the Supreme Court was at one point placed on the fact that the other was forced to resign and was not there to go after him to begin with... That vicious circle jerk..

    So tell me, what's changed exactly?

    Did you look at your links?

    The Bureau of Justice Statistics in regards to rape and sexual violence:

    2016 figures for rape and sexual violence:

    During the same period, rape or sexual assaults declined from 1.6 to 1.1 victimizations per 1,000 persons. Intimate partner violence also declined, from 3.0 to 2.2 per 1,000 persons.

    Woo, a drop.. #MeToo must have made a difference.. Right? It's changing for the better you said? Except #MeToo started in 2017, but anywho, there was a drop. So it must have kept dropping and "improving for the better", post #MeToo...

    2018 figures for rape and sexual violence post the whole #MeToo and things apparently now improving:

    while the rate of rape or sexual assault victimizations increased from 1.4 to 2.7 per 1,000 persons age 12 or older.

    I don't know what it's like in your neck of the woods, but in my neck of the woods, an increase in the rate of rape and sexual assault of this magnitude is not "things changing for the better"..

    Moving onto the second link, with an updated definition of rape:

    Is from 2012, before the whole #MeToo movement..

    You came into line with the rest of the world. Well done.

    Third link, the women's law project:

    On the front page sees a litany of stories and articles about how women's rights over their own bodies are being eroded.. A click on the #MeToo links is to a blog about what legal services they may offer to victims of sexual harassment.. Unfortunately only for certain cases and only if you live in one particular State.

    These services have been available for a long time.

    Have the rate of convictions and/or compensation increased dramatically for the victims of sexual harassment? Or is it more of the same? I mean, you said it is changing for the better in the US..

    What has been found that in the US and elsewhere, post #MeToo, men still greatly underestimate sexual harassment.

    The source of the survey and the poll can be found here.

    The National Sexual Violence Resource Center - who get their figures from the CDC and law enforcement agencies around the US, shows that things are still just as bad and now according to the BSJ, it's worse.

    Not only have things not changed for the better (or changed much at all), things have gotten worse for women and victims of sexual violence..

    Yes, we have established a lot has changed and is changing. There has been an increase in sexual violence over 2018 for example, post #MeToo..

    Once again, your question is kind of moot, because your question addresses the current status quo and our current lives.

    Your "what next?" is our (women's) now.

    You have had women here in this thread telling you that things haven't changed by our experience, evidence shows it hasn't changed for the better and this is our existence... Why do you think the answer is "unknown"?

    Women have been having this struggle for thousands of years.

    You should ask women of colour about #MeToo...


    Is that why sexual assault and sexual violence is still so under prosecuted?

    I am curious, because you seem to be arguing that women were heard before... There's a mountain of printed matter that testifies to the contrary? Give some links.

    Because all evidence points to a history of the criminal justice system continuously failing victims of sexual violence in America and elsewhere and things have not changed..

    According to FBI statistics, out of 127,258 rapes reported to police departments in 2018, 33.4 percent resulted in an arrest.[13] Based on correlating multiple data sources, RAINN (Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network) estimates[30] that for every 1,000 rapes, 384 are reported to police, 57 result in an arrest, 11 are referred for prosecution, 7 result in a felony conviction, and 6 result in incarceration. This compares to a higher rate at every stage for similar crimes.

    And it's not just in the US. In the UK for example, despite an increase in reported rapes, there are now less rape prosecutions than before...

    Women reported rapes, sexual violence, sexual harassment in the past and present. Hence why I said no one really bothered to look. For example #MeToo only took off when a white famous woman adopted the mantra and she was then forced to give credit to an African American woman who coined it in 2006 for victims of sexual violence and harassment and she and her hashtag had been ignored for 11 years...

    No one bothered to look.

    The women are speaking Jeeves. Perhaps you should pause and listen.

    Of course it hasn't changed.

    But hush now child... The men have to tell us it has changed....

    Frankly, this thread is a perfect example of just how much things have not changed.
  23. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

    Frankly, this forum is a perfect example of just how much things have not changed.

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