OK, so who else is *** with Sam, ...

Discussion in 'SF Open Government' started by phlogistician, Mar 23, 2008.

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  1. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

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    There are two definitions(do bear in mind you're using wiki

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    ). The second one there isn't very detailed, but it is edging towards the correct one for most atheists. Not so much rejecting but lacking a belief in god. Obviously stating clearly god does not exist is a belief as you cannot prove the non-existence of anything unless it has clearly defined parameters. So if someone said god was on my bed, I can look and see clearly god is not, hence it's non-existence can be proven. However if they say he is invisible and cannot be touched I cannot prove his non-existence, but without proof he is there(beyond hearsay) I will still lack a belief in his existence, this makes me atheist by default as you either believe or lack that belief(note I wouldn't be saying he is not/cannot be there). Agnosticism is attributed to knowledge, so you can say I believe in god but am aware I cannot prove said belief, or I lack belief but given the parameters I cannot prove non-existence. Hence agnostic atheists and agnostic theists, she's halfway there but missing very important bits of information. I'm sure you can understand this.
    I may be wrong but it seems pure agnosticism is actually impossible.

    I wouldn't really attribute coolness to any of it, you just find what is right for you, you can be agnostic atheist if you like.
     
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  3. John99 Banned Banned

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    WRONG. It is not a system. That much is obvious.

    Belief:

    Example-

    "i dont believe it"

    Means what it says, no belief.
     
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  5. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

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    From what I've read you seem to ignore most of what was said against you, and have decried all atheists as a belief system despite being told there is no system and precisely why there isn't.
     
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  7. Exhumed Self ******. Registered Senior Member

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    I looked at a variety of sources for this, and I found them all to agree with what S.A.M. was using. One could even say that you are the one being dishonest and misrepresenting things, but that would be just as silly. And even if not, it is, as S.A.M. said, semantics. Hardly worth getting so upset about.
     
  8. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I agree that atheism is not yet organised though the Dawkins athiest movement and their Tshirt indicates that this may change in the future.

    However the application of the title "belief" has nothing to do with organised religion or a code or creed, it is based on scientific rigor. I use two methods in my reasoning, abductive reasoning and falsifiability.

    The evidence is that atheists arguing religion do not simply not believe in God, they actively argue against those who do. They attack the beliefs of theists and ask for evidence of God, refuting the beliefs of theists with arguments like FSM and IPU. Hence they have arrived at a conclusion which they desire falsified for the argument to be acceptable to them.

    Second, their own position is unfalsifiable by experimental testing.

    Together the two constitute belief.

    If you switch theists for atheists in the above argument you can see that the two are identical.
     
  9. John99 Banned Banned

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    you got 10 fingers and 10 toes. thats about all thats known and if more was to be known we would know it.
     
  10. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Soooo is this going to be move to the religion forum because I don't see anything on here after the 1st page that involve sciforums?
     
  11. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

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    Several dictionaries use two definitions, the first being a belief in gods non-existence, the second is lacking a belief. The reason they carry both definitions is because both are correct, like many other words which have multiple meanings.
    It's also logic, if I am without gods I am A-theist meaning without theism. It's a commonly accepted term to mean lacking a belief, many atheists have been asked and declare this to be the definition, and to be honest I think their say is far more important that that of the religious dont you?
    They know they are not theists, and whilst they might be agnostics too it doesn't convey the correct meaning, it implies sitting on the fence, yet they definitively lack a belief in gods because of lack of proof.
    It's quite clear really. It's also clear exactly how this cannot be any sort of belief system, it has only one tenet, hardly a system, and one tenet which has varying degrees of strength to it at that.
     
  12. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Ok how about a compromise: some atheist "believe" there is no god, and others just consider god a very low probability.
     
  13. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I have no problem with semantics, just don't ask me to consider nonscience as science

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  14. Exhumed Self ******. Registered Senior Member

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    Semantics are tedious, particularly in this case

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  15. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Whatever is comforting. :shrug:

    I deplore the lack of clarity in thinking these days. People believe anything as long as it sustains their preconceived notions

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  16. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

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    What on earth makes you think a significant proportion(let alone all) of atheists would want to shed one god and his prophets and belief system only to follow someone else??????

    If someone makes a statement against atheism they have every right to correct them if it's wrong. Likewise if someone persists in telling them they are hellbound for not believing they have every right to tell them why they do not share such a belief, everybody is entitled to not feel forced to believe and agree with someone else, many atheists feel defensive and that religion is by it's very nature intolerant, it desires all people to share its viewpoint and conversion is a direct aim. They're also outnumbered in the world and encounter far more people trying to convert them than the religious even encounter atheists, let alone ones desiring conversion.
    What exactly is wrong with asking evidence of god if someone is insisting they're correct and you're wrong?
    Most atheists want to understand why someone has the belief, particularly if they're insisting they're correct. That is hardly a belief.

    We've covered this.

    See above.
     
  17. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Last edited: Mar 23, 2008
  18. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

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    Of course that's true, and most people (atheists in particular) will argue from that position because that is there belief, agnosticism being the middle ground is not an accurate description of their belief. It's similar to theists, all believe in a god by definition but not all believe they can prove it's existence, they say things like "i just feel it". Agnostic theists and agnostic atheists. Rarely is there a time when something is black and white like people desire.
     
  19. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Ok now if SAM agrees we can get on with our lives?
     
  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I ask only for testability.

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  21. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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    Only if she acknowledges that there is a difference between saying "I am unaware of any valid evidence for the existence of any gods" and saying "There is no god".
     
  22. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Well as I was saying some atheist agree that god can't be disprove, Anti-Flag calls them "agnostic atheists" do you not agree that these people do not "believe"?
     
  23. John99 Banned Banned

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    Its not a belief and it definitely is not a 'belief system'. There is no such thing as an Atheist either, just as there is no system called communism. What we are discussing are physical impossibilities, neither exists. And they never will.
     
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