Obama Spurs Ayn Rand Revival: Sales of Atlas Shrugged Surge

Discussion in 'Politics' started by madanthonywayne, Mar 4, 2009.

  1. Lakon Valued Senior Member

    Ah, a little bit of both, huh ?

    Trouble is, the 'socialism' part usually supervenes the 'democracy'. People always want more than they are entitled to.

    Greece, the cradle of democracy .. democratically voted itself pensions for public servants and others at ages 47. They drowned themselves in vast oceans of debt, feeling sure that their, emm, socials would pay for it.

    It's now a basket case and much of the populance is leaving those bastions of .. emm, social democracy (Athens, etc) and reverting to a more agrarian, self sufficient existence - their patriarchal roots, ie, going back to their parents villages and starting afesh, growing their own food, etc. Vast numbers of those remaining are literlly begging - housewives are literally prostetuting themselves to pay for dinner. And the state keeps increasing it's slice of whatever megre income they might have, or increasing the burden of taxation on their fixed assets. It's social, after all.
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  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Greece has been fascist until recently, and was robbed and wrecked mostly by international capitalists, organized crime, and corrupt financiers (their debt problems were within reason, and they were among the hardest working people in the Eurozone).

    The hardships imposed by the austerity program of the IMF and its banker allies are indeed severe, but are not to be ascribed to "social" factors. Contrast Iceland.

    That misleads. The Greek State is not particularly large, and the biggest problem with taxes in Greece is not that they are too high but that the rich evade them in such quantities - as in the US, and unlike more stable countries such as Germany, the rich in Greece are able to avoid paying taxes - that's what ran up the government debt so rapidly in the 1980s and 90s, leaving the poor and middle class overburdened and poorly serviced at the same time (double paying for services, tax and private, dragging the whole economy down) Here is a standard economist's link one can peruse for data: http://www.greekdefaultwatch.com/2012/06/is-krugman-right-about-greece.html
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  5. Lakon Valued Senior Member

    Really ? Up until the early 1900's and WW1, Greece was under Ottoman rule for 400 years. I don't know of any facism since then, other than the "The Regime of the Colonels" in the 1967 - 1974 period which came to a head when military sent in the tanks to bomb the students holed up in the Athens Polytechnic. Other than this, Greece has largley been a socialist democracy.

    Yes .. which country hasn't been ?

    Why are they unrepayable then ?

    Lol .. they were NOT. They were some of the laziest, expecting constant government handouts and pensions, and, in order for political parties to be voted in, they promised and gave them just that. I was born there. I go there every year. I know this very well.

    And why do you suppose the austerity measures ? So as to have some semblence of some hope of some repayment of the seas of debt the Greek socialist governments ran up. Why else do you suppose ?

    I din't say it was ..

    I didn't say they were .. but they are now, due to the State trying to find money to service the vast debts it accrued.

    As do, or rather did, the middle and lower classes. Throughout Greece, the cash society was de rigueur.

    The government in the last couple of years, has made enormous, often draconian measures to overcome tax evasion from all stratas of society.

    That, AND the huge impost of middle and lower classes depending on the government for things it couldn't afford - tens of thousands of public servants retired at 47 years of age.

    Corruption in Greece has been ENDEMIC at all levels, and the biggest problem IMO has been overspending (for votes) by socialistic governments.

    My whole point in bringing up Greece was in reply to the earlier post about socialist democracy. There are the fruits of it. As I said, in a socialist democracy, most people expect more than they deserve, and vote in the party that promises them that.

    PS - not sure why you mentioned Iceland. I hope you're not offering THAT as a fine example of a succesful socialist democracy ?
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