Nuclear Fusion

Discussion in 'Architecture & Engineering' started by kmguru, Jan 2, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    Energy of the Stars, With No Emissions

    A consortium of governments will build a groundbreaking fusion power plant in France for a price in excess of €5 billion. After decades of discouraging setbacks, plasma physics has made jaw-dropping recent progress. Could it save the world?

    Something went wrong during reactor experiment number 23,995. The fusion process started, continued for a second, but suddenly broke off. Before it collapsed the plasma in the reactor chamber began to vibrate, and microphones transmitted a squealing sound to the control center.

    "The plasma probably had too much contact with the chamber walls," physicist Arne Kallenbach surmised, "and then underwent a sudden drop in temperature. That happens fairly often. Unfortunately, the plasma is pretty unstable, particularly during the phase when it is being heated up."

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,599211,00.html

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    The "Asdex Upgrade" reactor, at the Max Planck Institute for Plasma Physics in Garching, near Munich, uses microwave components to heat plasma to 100 million degrees Celsius -- several times the heat of the sun.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Nasor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,221
    Fusion research is important, but it's not likely to "save the world" any time soon. Fusion power plants will be much like fission power plants; big expensive things that take a long time to build and many people to operate.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,706
    The reason why it will save the world is because fusion power provides an incredibly large amount of energy. Think back to the nuclear bomb, in one flash of a second it can produce a gigantic and immense amount of power, a fusion bomb, explosion is 100,000 times as powerful. And this is in a fraction of a second think about keeping one going for days.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. PieAreSquared Woo is resistant to reason Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,144
    But you need a fission bomb to light the fusion bomb. ;-) Teller-Ulam design kind of like double-mint gum
     
  8. Saquist Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,256
    I've seen the other reactor based on lasers. All of them will need to be preciselly aligned. The world energy problems would be solved if we can find a way to bring down alot of things concerning Fusion.

    Cost and power being just two.
     
  9. weed_eater_guy It ain't broke, don't fix it! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,516
    I've been following these guys for a little bit...

    http://focusfusion.org/

    It's an interesting idea, and if it proves to be workable, would allow for much tinier reactors than the tokomaks would be; the size of an electrical substation as opposed to the size of a conventional nuclear plant. They're basically taking the idea behind a dense plasma focus device and jacking it to the highest limits to try and get the plasma energetic enough to create pulses of fusion.

    This thing would be pretty sweet because, given it's potential size, it just might be usable in certain vehicles like ships or even spacecraft and aircraft.
     
  10. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    They should apply for a grant to the Bill Gates Foundation. The whole idea looks very promising. They need to solve the energy transfer to the solenoid...may be a thermally cooled solenoid would work....the other part may be increasing the magnetic field between anode and cathode which could be tricky. I wonder if they have any problems listed so that we can volunteer to solve them....a kind of open source design...

    Last year, I had a dream about the plasma filament coiling like the picture shows but did not understand the significance...now I know....
     
  11. PieAreSquared Woo is resistant to reason Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,144
  12. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    I think we all should write to the Goobermint (a good one

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    ) via www.change.gov for this department to start various fusion projects. It will benefit the planet more than any other evironmental programs....
     
  13. weed_eater_guy It ain't broke, don't fix it! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,516
    Good call, Obama might be such a man to dump funds into this sorta thing. And they wouldn't even need to start fusion projects, there are plenty of underfunded projects in existence already!

    I know I keep bringing up Focus Fusion (it's a favorite effort, sry!), but they're only asking for a few million as opposed to billions for projects like the NIF or ITER. The funding of hundreds of smaller projects such as Focus Fusion may not cost so much in comparison as opposed to funding the larger efforts, and who knows, they may yield a smarter way (if not a few good ways) to do fusion. At the very least, they can disprove some methods as being impossible and not worthy of future investing.
     
  14. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    If you have a contact at the Focus Fusion, PM me, I could connect them to a good funding source.
     
  15. PieAreSquared Woo is resistant to reason Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,144
    Keep bringing up Focus Fusion !! I guess I'm a bitter about Fusion research in the US and the National Labs . I know this is the web and all and I can say just about anything. But I did work at Los Alamos a long time ago. As a Mech. Tech, no plasma physicist or anything, I did beat a lot of them in chess.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    But it pisses me off and it's been pissing me off for close to 25 years. The crap the government < goobermint

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    > has been doing. They get some good results, viable progress and then they turn it over to a weapons program. Reagen in particular. Even NIF is covering up some of their motives. They kill shit with underfunding , it's like they don't want it to work.

    Magnetic vs. Lasers , yeah keep it going in both directions. There are advantages to magnetic, no fuel pellets--- gas.. in many ways it's easier. Plasma translation to another chamber looks hot <pun intended> to allow the plasma ring to expand without hitting the walls and cooling... death basically.

    Sorry for ranting, but I feel it's something that could already be in place except for the misdirection that has gone on over the years. Again it pisses me off to no end.

    You younger folks, don't cut them any slack , keep the pressure on them. I hope Obama does some house-cleaning. But I feel it's going to come form overseas, judging from some of the articles I have seen here... thanks btw... or it's going to be the private sector.
     
  16. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    Yes, we all should start emailing to various foundations, news journalists (most of them have email address at the end of their articles), and government organizations. May be we can do a grassroot campaign in this direction.

    Several years ago, I had this brilliant idea to develop an electron stripper in a million ampere level but could not find a good metallurgist partner to look for alloys/ conductors best for the job. I think that is another way to produce electricity too. Needs some serious thoughts out of the box....

    I think we will get there....
     
  17. PieAreSquared Woo is resistant to reason Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,144
    the change link is now

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/eop/opl/

    also from wh dot gov

    Over the last three decades, federal funding for the physical, mathematical, and engineering sciences has declined at a time when other countries are substantially increasing their own research budgets. President Obama and Vice President Biden believe federally funded scientific research should play an important role in advancing science and technology in the classroom and in the lab.
     
  18. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    The problem with our government is - as fluff rises to the top, there is a tendency to dump money in science projects that is equivalent to "the bridge to nowhere". I have seen NSF grant RFPs with all sort of interesting stuff that some company gets it but one never hears about the project after 2 years.

    I hope we have minimal such issues....
     
  19. PieAreSquared Woo is resistant to reason Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,144
    One less problem... at least we didn't get the bridge building barbie doll in the VP seat ;-)
     
  20. weed_eater_guy It ain't broke, don't fix it! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,516
    About that bridge... wasn't it because there was supposed to be an airport built on the adjacent island, but since federal funds for the airport were cut during the bridge project, the bridge was rendered useless?

    That's off topic though. I don't have any contacts at Focus Fusion, I'm just a guy who checks their site off and on. Plasma research and the like isn't really my field, otherwise I'd be all over it.
     
  21. Walter L. Wagner Cosmic Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,541

    Thanks for the link. I've followed the Livermore route for decades, and they aren't getting anywhere either. They switched their fuel-implosion pellets from using lasers to 'burn-off' the outer layer, imploding the fuel, to using proton beams, but still no luck. I've thought of using proton beams on other fuels including B-11, but it'd also be tricky, and not tried as of yet.

    I do believe that if the money had been spent on B-11 fusion with protons [whether via "focus fusion" type devices, or other such as proton beam on B-11], we'd have at least a workable device by now.

    But as Focus Fusion points out, most of the money has been going to tokamaks. Part of the "good ol' boy" network of physics, rather like CERN and the LHC.
     
  22. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    The other problem is that after the physicists work out the science part, it should be turned over to the engineers to build the prototype and then commercialize it. But the Physicists want to retire on the research milking it as long as they could. I have some experience with both Sandia and Lawerence Livermore....
     
  23. weed_eater_guy It ain't broke, don't fix it! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,516
    Isn't this how it already works? Physicists build experiments and then a proof-of-concept system, then engineers work to make the device economical? This is why some universities have undergrad majors like "Nuclear, Plasma and Radiological Engineering", whose students we affectionately know as "Nukies" around here.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page