Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by wesmorris, Oct 20, 2005.

  1. Onefinity Registered Senior Member

    Time is timing. Timing means intervals. Intervals are in something. That something is movement. Humans need timing in order to know movement. Movement is not only the root of all things; it is all things. But don't dwell on this too hard. Just imagining it requires an ability to use intuition, a very deep, sensory imagination, which in you is weak compared to your logical side.
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  3. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    Onefinity, I find your perspective on movement quite interesting. I'd like to see a thread by regarding your "deep list" above, unless you just want to talk about it here. I'm curious at the moment as to how you relate "dimensionality" to movement, as there can be no movement without its possiblity... so perhaps you consider it integrated into the term, as with the term "movement", "the possibility of movement" is implied?

    What is moving, and what is it moving in? What are the possibilities of movement?

    To me, movement implies many things. I wonder if there's a level of dimensionality though at which the term would become irrelevant. I suppose not at first thought, but I'd like to hear more of your ideas in its regard and ponder it more thoroughly.

    We can just talk about that in your new thread if you want, or go here, however you like.
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  5. Onefinity Registered Senior Member


    Sure, I can start a new thread. What would I call it? As far as "what's moving?" Only movement is moving, and thus we cannot see it. Everything else - all objects and events - are standing waves.

    Metaphor: Is a river moving?
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2005
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  7. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    Well, I have a style of my own for thread naming. If I were doing it I'd call it something direct like "movement" or if you're going to run the list "Deep List" or something like that.

    Of course a river is moving no? It's also changing. The river of now is not the same river as now except in convenience of referring to a generality. I am not the me now that I am now except in the same.

    What's the different between change and movement? Please answer in your groovy new thread.
  8. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member


    Ever hear of Zeno's second paradox? Remove time from an arrow, and what you get is a static object, which shows no signs at all of movement. Would not this indicate more than just a human incapacity to view movement outside of time?

    Also, might you be able to elaborate a wee bit on this notion of intuition as "very deep, sensory imagination"? Perhaps describe what you mean more completely and why you think I am weak in such?

    Ah, I suppose I'll just post in the movement thread now.
  9. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member


    Nice thread wes.
    *my opinion*
    Ultimately, NOW, is the reality.
    All our experiences happen now.
    When we recall past events, we can only recall them NOW, for NOW
    When we consider the future, we do so NOW.
    Now aways exists, the past is a collection of NOWS.
    The past and the future do not exist in reality.

    This about matter and spirit. Matter always changing, spirit stays constant. This is a great topic to dicuss and understand God to.

    Jan Ardena.
  10. Darkman Registered Senior Member

    Perhaps there is no now, for as you rightly put it Wes, 'now' could consist of milliseconds, or seconds. Maybe there is only the past, which has already happened, and the future, which is yet to happen.
  11. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    To me, mind is begat by a bubble in time. Perhaps you could see it as a pancake squished onto a plane perpendicular to the instantaneous moment. I dunno. Awareness itself cannot be if there isn't more time in it than just an infinetissimal: dt. Awareness requires by its nature a connection to past and future.
  12. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

    Does awareness really require a connection to past and future? I don't think so, remembering being aware is one thing, but awareness itself doesn't have to require a connection to past and future. Only awareness of the now would be the same as total freedom, but also probably total randomness...though if you knew what to do constantly then it would be equal to total obediance...

    The awareness we have now is probably a balance between total randomness and total obediance, in which we can use the randomness in a meaningful way.

    Who knows?
  13. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    Just a lil bit, yeah. At least a smidge - straight up. Why? Because if neither exist (abstractly, I don't think they do exist physically), there is nothing to be aware of. If there is no sense of "what's coming" or "what just happened", what's left? More technically, the "bubble" in time is more than just the time. While you may focus on "the now", you are more than it, or you wouldn't be because there isn't enough now for you to be in. Infinitessimal is too small for anything to exist within. In order for "awareness" to exist, it must account for "time" in some capacity. As such, there is a connection to "the past" and "the future", or whatever you want to call them. No?

    I disagree per the above.

    But there isn't enough "now" for you to exist in if you look at the clock and talk about it as in "where is the now". Now? Is it now? Well, it's alway right now but in terms of linear, measurable time, now is infinitessimal. I draw the conclusion that we exist within at least the illusion of more time than just the time of the now. As such, past and future blah blah like I said above.

    For some reason, obediance is a dirty word to me. I find it repulsive... pardon the tangent.

    I have tentative knowledge of, pending someone's ability to show me the flaw in my thinking, or rather my ability to garner a response I can use to break out of my current mental paradigm.
  14. marv Just a dumb hillbilly... Registered Senior Member

    "Now" is simply a boundary between "past" and "future". It has no duration, and it's not even worth discussing. Talking about the arrow that travels half the remaining distance to its target (thus never getting there) is more fun.
  15. nameless Registered Senior Member

    Hi Marv, actually, the arrow cannot move at all, as to move, first the arrow must move half the distance to the first nanometer of it's flight, but before must move half that distance, etc...
    So, mathematically, motion is impossible.
    Either math/logic is horrendously flawed to produce such an obviously false conclusion, or the evidence of our senses as received and manipulated by our minds is horribly inaccurate and cannot be trusted as an indicator of 'Reality'.
    Or neither...
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2005
  16. PhilosopherKnight Registered Member


    You might as well have said a trillionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a trillionth of a trillionth.... well you get my point. Now is merely the demarcation between the past and the future...
  17. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    Is it?

    I can buy that to some extent, but from my perspective right now, it's always now and there is no future and no past except as abstracts I can reference as I please. The past and future are merely demarcations of the transitioning now, no?
  18. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

    there is no past or future, there is only "now", time dosent exist, there are only currently ongoing events, the past is just a memory of something that previously happened before the chain of events that lead up to the event that your living now,

    there is no time, there is only action and reaction, cause and effect,

  19. nameless Registered Senior Member

    Hey, Empty, your knowledge is out of date.
    There is no action/reaction, no cause/effect.
    They are considered 'different aspects of the same event'.
    Linear time is a fantasy, as is motion. For motion to 'exist', time must 'exist' as a context for that motion. Mathematics and logic tell us that motion cannot 'be' and is a 'fiction'.
  20. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned


    when did i say the word motion? i said action and reaction, like if i pick a ball up and throw it, i caused the ball to move, cause and effect from the cause, time is irrelevant to the situation, it was just an event, you could time the ball but thats just a human tool/concept to measure something,

  21. nameless Registered Senior Member

    Does not 'ongoing events' and 'chain of events that lead up to the event that your living now', mean motion?
    Or are all your 'nows', your 'events', occurring simultaneously.

    You are describing motion here too.
    The ball rising and flying through the air is an event. Part of that event is your hand touching the ball for a portion of that event. You are the 'cause' of the ball going through the air no more than the ball was the cause of your hand touching it, rising (more motion), and ceasing contact while it rose and flew through the air.

    Your problem here is that time is not irrelevent to motion as motion MUST have the time to 'happen'. You cannot have a one sided coin.
    'Time' has no more 'reality' than that which you perceive as 'motion'.
    BUT, for the 'fiction of motion' to exist, time must also exist. It is 'all' fiction though, born from the perceptions of the body and mind.

    Yes! motion, 'self', matter/space/gravity/time.. EVERYTHING that you can conceive, 'exists as a 'concept'. Our whole omniverse, concepts within Mind.
  22. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned


    so your conclusion is that ongoing events dont exist, and me throwing a ball dosent exist, if this is your approach to discussion,

    then everything is just a concept of our five senses, so everything is irrelevant so lets just conclude everything dosent exist and settle every debate with the "everything is a concept" method and approach.

    hey and if you say a balls motion and falling dont exist then gravity dosent exist also, and wind resistance on the ball dont exist either, because there all part of cause and effect,

  23. nameless Registered Senior Member

    I have no 'conclusions as whatever present tentative understanding is always subject to modification should new 'evidence' require.

    I am here to discuss 'Reality' as I understand it, from my perspective. If I wished to discuss fantasy and delusion, I'd go to a religious site. It is 'illusion' that youir 'ball' is different from the arm throwing it is different from the person catching it is different from the Andromeda galaxy, etc... Making believe that everything has independent, seperate 'existence' is a game. Believing the same is 'delusion'.

    Again, I have a very specific 'ultimate' definition of Reality/Existence as I have previously shared. It is a simple choice on my part not to accept all and every 'phenomenon' as 'Real', as per my definition. Others do not share the 'subtleties' that I employ. It is simply a matter of 'choice' and 'understanding'.

    What you mention 'exists' as 'dream'. As 'hologram'. I can discuss anything you like from that perspective of understanding. When you question where everything goes under the microscope and find paradox all over the place, as I do not 'suffer' from that problem due to my 'understanding', I can offer a 'different' perspective that might resolve your paradoxes. Otherwise, I guess it really doesnt matter what you choose to 'believe' or what perspective you choose to occupy.

    They all 'exist' within the 'dream'. It is for you to decide how much 'importance' to place upon the 'stuff of your dreams'.

    As I said, modern science doesn't go for the 'medieval concept' of 'cause and effect' anymore, and oddly enough, neither do I. I shall not respond to discussion of outmoded notions as if they had validity. It is not uncommon for people to come 'kicking and screaming' into a new understanding, a new and improved 'world view'. Gallileo has just recently been 're-commumicated'! The pain doesn't last long.

    Back atcha!

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