Now

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Bowser, Mar 10, 2018.

  1. Bowser Life is Fatal. Valued Senior Member

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    Only the mind is so flexible, yet finite
     
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  3. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    Not sure I would agree with you regarding the concept you sketched out

    Try obtain a book called The Invention of Time and Space by Patrice F. Dassonville which goes in great detail of why time does not exist

    What is normally regarded as time is better defined as AGE so clocks are NOT time machines. They are closer to a tape measure as they measure AGE

    The book is to detailed to do it justice in a summary

    Below are some thoughts i put down when discussing Time machines

    Is it possible to make a time machine?

    NO

    to make time travel possible?

    NO

    Please may I ask, which to me is a obvious question? This time you wish to travel in (either back to the past or forward to the future) where exactly does this time hang out? Where is any aspect of the past or future located?

    You live only in NOW. As soon as NOW turned up past vanished. As soon as future turned up it became NOW

    Pre NOW and post NOW are not in existence

    How would you segment the past or future? In 1 second slices? How would you stick the 1 second slices together?

    You are forever stuck in NOW

    Did I mention or have I given you the impression you can never move out of NOW?

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  5. goose Registered Senior Member

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    Fair enough

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    yep, completely agree on this.

    100% agree.
    Even though I think time is the effect of a spatial dimension permeating through our universe does not mean I think it is possible to move through it however we wish.

    One big error that I think people make when trying to make a claim that time travel is possible is... if you put yourself into a big blue box that could time travel, the box itself isn't going through time but instead making the entire universe alter it's time. Your time isn't changing, the universes time is.

    Not sure this is directed to me, but I don't think time as we consider it is what it really is so I'm not sure how to answer this question.

    Well of course we can't... that would completely undermine the principal of what now is

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  7. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    At what point do "you" cease to be "you" by dint of changes caused by time?
    It seems the self is immutable. Outside of the realm of mental illness, does anyone ever refer to themselves in the 3rd person?
     
  8. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    Was not directed at you sorry. As I said it was something I wrote for a question - Can we build a time machine

    I just recycled as a cut and paste

    Apart from the aspect of time travel or traveling in time it never seems to be understood that the physical Earth carves a very complex route through the cosmos

    So apart from traveling in space you need to tie yourself and machine to the region you occupy to avoid popping out where Earth used to be when you set off

    Also hope nothing has taken up residence in the area you wish to occupy when you arrive

    I did make a comparison between time a a movie reel

    Here's another cut / paste

    This is a thought experiment so

    JUST FOR THE PURPOSE OF THE START OF THIS EXPERIMENT I WILL CONSIDER THE FUTURE AND THE PAST AS EXISTING

    Consider a movie film projector

    Canister of film on top (FUTURE)

    The light / frame between light and lens / lens / screen (NOW)

    Canister of film on bottom (PAST)

    Consider the canister of film on top to represent 1 day (00:01 to 23:59)

    Run the film and stop at random time (10:00am)

    System has 14 hours top canister (FUTURE)

    NOW on screen

    10 hours bottom canister (PAST)

    To make it easier to imaginea take the top canister film out ande remove all but 2 minutes

    Same with bottom canister leave2 minutes attached discarded anything older

    System has 2 minutes top (FUTURE)
    NOW on screen
    2 minutes bottom (PAST)

    Mark the frame which was showing as NOW the screen

    Lay the film out on a bench

    Looking at the film you should observe differences between each frame and a gap (line) between frames

    One line below the FUTURE frame above the NOW frame

    One line above the PAST frame below the NOW frame

    The line is the moment when a shutter cuts off the light while the frames advance

    HOWEVER life does NOT operate like a movie film

    NOW is continuous

    No cut off or line between frames while next frame is moved into position

    Yes everybody's memory is retained from previous NOWs and can be imagined for FUTURE NOWs

    The measurement between any two NOWs is known as AGE

    Back to the strip of film

    Cut off all remaining FUTURE frames

    Cut off all remaining PAST frames

    Replace the NOW frame in the projector

    Within reality you would see the NOW projected on the screen change with no reliance on any FUTURE (or PAST) frames

    Since by the explanation just given FUTURE and PAST do not EXIST but NOW continues without either I contend

    NOW is the ONLY IT

    TIME (as existing in the PAST or FUTURE is simply not there. The image on the screen is like a single slide BUT one in which the image continues to change

    AGE as between two bookmarks (let's change bookmarks to nowmarks)

    AGE as between two NOWMARKS can be measured and labelledl as being AGES compared as well as physical processes occurring on on a AGED material

    Some substances AGE more (become more disorganised) dispite having the same measurement between NOWs as other substances

    Will wind up now and hope this explains my position

    Further reading

    Dictionary - meaning of EXIST

    Again not directed at you

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  9. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Others would disagree, with NOW simply being the discrete packet of time that you are currently experiencing before moving onto the next one.
    From my understanding, string theory, for example, models time as continuous, while Quantum Gravity models it as discrete. But it may be that models of the universe that are otherwise indistinguishable other than being modeled with different concepts of time (i.e. continuous or discrete) lead us to conclude that time is neither... and both... continuous and discrete. Just as light is neither simply discrete nor continuous (wave), so might time be so fortunate.
     
  10. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    I would have a problem with thinking about time as discrete packets, as in start / stop / start

    What would be the mechanism for the stopping to happen?

    What would be the mechanism for the restarting?

    What would be "happening" during the stopped part (no matter how "long or short" stopped part last)?

    Does EVERYTHING stop / start in sync?

    A jerky Universe, would be one weirder than, what I consider, the smooth one we currently live in

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  11. goose Registered Senior Member

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    I could say that there isn't ever a point, as there isn't a point between one interval of time to the next, there is only flow or permeation. The "self" is changing on an ever-changing scale with time.
    Some people may refer to themselves in the 3rd person, but just because it isn't socially accepted doesn't mean it isn't technically right (and visa-versa of course). It is much easier to to refer to ourselves as "I" regardless of time frame because of the reference-frame that we invent on ourselves. We may be creating a 'person' that is essentially a culmination of all of our 'selves' rolled into one. much like how we use place-holders in math. A, which represents time t to t', is what I consider me, regardless if it is exactly accurate.

    For instance, (This may not apply to you)... but many people consider themselves to be their entire body. I don't. My body is just a vessel in which I reside. My body is what keeps me alive currently and is the best way to do so. However, when I refer to my past self as I, I am speaking of course of the entire body. Slightly different principal (not technically time-related), but it could still be applied in a way.
     
  12. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    People may "change over time", but to say such changes occur outside of the context of a selfhood that is necessarily constant leads up to many absurd consequences. For instance, the application of reward and punishment, establishing social bonds, either individually in terms of friendship or collectively in terms society (democracy becomes invalid, along with whoever is elected to positions of power etc).

    Of course you can say all these shortcomings of designating characterizations of "who" to "what" are merely the consequences of facillitated illusion. However if your so called proponents of this so-called "truth of selfhood" would be left in a world that would be less operational than a society of mentally ill inmates, one has to wonder exactly who is laboring under a system of artificial impositions.
     
  13. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    Agree
    Agree - time is not stop/start
    Not sure either apply but I haven't got any better suggestion - still looking
    From memory the average age of various parts of the body is 7 years. Some parts are replaced faster than others
    The original you (I'm starting from birth - not conception) has added millions of cells and replaced millions by the age of 1 year, I don't consider while the process is occurring you never stops being you

    You do stop being you at death - when the processes cease. Now just a bunch of chemicals

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  14. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    Infinitesimal.
     
  15. goose Registered Senior Member

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    May be able to think of time as an effect, and not a cause... a permeation of a 4th spatial dimension creates an effect that we perceive as time (working on a theory that uses this idea)
     
  16. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    Which is noted as AGE
    One arbitrary place mark to another arbitrary place mark
    I can see that as a point of view BUT as everything obviously does not happen simultaneously - I would contend changes which occur as everything AGES prevent such a scenario
    (That put Huey Dewey and Louie to the test)

    Infinitesimal cousin to infinitely small. Really a distinction without a difference

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  17. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    That was my point. "Now" is infinitely small. A nanosecond later, what used to be "now" is old news.
     
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Right , but not at the same place.

    My question: If everything happens via quantum change, would matter exist in a binary state, i.e. a continuous state of quantum change from one state to another or by extension a continuous "on>off>on" state?
    If so, would half the universe (including humans) be in an "on" state and the other half (including humans) in an "off" state and we experience only half of reality at every "now" ?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  19. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    I think this raises a salient point.

    "Now" is a product of perception. It requires a mind to perceive the travel through time - to see the connections between now-and-future and now-and-past.

    And that would certainly go a long way toward explaining why we find it so hard to define objectively, yet we all understand the passage of time utterly intuitively.
     
  20. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    The problem I have with giving NOW any dimension at all - even a tiny Pico second or even less - for me implies a stop / start framework with a "gap" between PAST and NOW and NOW and FUTURE

    Alternatively blending PAST NOW FUTURE together also has problems. I'm trying to find a comparison between a blended PAST NOW FUTURE with a river but I'm not there yet

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  21. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    That was one flavour of Zeno's Paradox, and it's been resolved.
     
  22. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    I will look it up after breakfast but I have a dim memory from about 25 years ago I did know some of the details then

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  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    This is my take on quantum also, however I just read that the "gap" (off state) is the near infinitely small moment when both Past and Future are in "superposition". I believe another term is Quantum Suspension.
    I think this is similar to Bohm's Implicate, but that is a metaphysical concept of potential, if I understand it.

    But that still begs the question if quantum superposition (where the cat in the box is both dead and alive), represents a realistic physical state where there is something in process of change to something else, i.e. smooth continuity of reality (duration of time), instead of on>gap>on states.
    https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/...physicists-superimpose-past-and-future-events
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2018

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