Yeah, but do you have any proof the the universe cannot disappear ? That premise is based on nothing really. Let me rephrase: "If everything (all matter and energy and whatever more there might be) was to disappear, then nothing would be left. Do you agree with that ?
lol sorry Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I just don't like that song very much Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
- Like a theist with an absent god. I find it is not so rare in the West. Non-theists sometimes have similar thinking patterns (especially regarding things like the origin and end of the Universe and the meaning of life) as Christians; except that those non-theists don't have a God there, but instead an empty space - hence the appearance that nothing really matters, where Christians would say it matters to or because of God. You care about things, don't you? So they matter - per your own logic. But why this - ? Whence this idea that if humankind is to matter, then it is only if there is someone (or something) to whom it matters? To propose that humankind only matters if it matters to someone (something) else is a theist value structure.
Well maybe it is a theist value structure, I don't care. You are a theist aren't you ? If so, then per your own logic you can see my point.
Greenberg, do you mean to say that if no one cares about a particular 'thing' it still matters ? If so, to who ?
Also, Christians can always say it still matters to God (as you pointed out). But when I say everything I mean everything, that includes a possible God.
Do you have any proof that the Universe can disappear? I have no proof either way, I was posing a theoretical alternative to make my point. If you have no proof that it can disappear, then why speculate what would happen if it would? If I eat this cookie, will I have eaten this cookie ... Grantywanty and I have been asking you throughout this thread - Why are you mulling over this question? What's in it for you? You don't have to answer here. But answering these questions will most likely help you answer your initial question that set off this thread.
Ofcourse I have no proof, it's is a hypothetical question to demonstrate my point. There is nothing 'in it' for me, I just want to see what others think of it and what they think of what I have to say. And maybe discuss some points, yeah, that would be nice.. You and Grant have not seriously tried to see my point, all you have been doing is trying to find out why I am thinking about this. If I eat this cookie, will I have eaten this cookie ... I really don't know what to think of this.. is that a yes or a no ?
I'm not a theist, but I think I can see what you're getting at. No, I don't mean to say that. I'll put it this way: It seems to me that you would accept that things matter only (1) if there is someone who cares about them; or (2) if they have intrinsic value per se. But as neither seems to be possible to establish, you end up with the conclusion that nothing really matters. Am I understanding you correctly?
Hmm (1) and (2) are the same to me. I will try to give an example in the form of a question: If one dies in agony does the agony really matter. Does it matter if one dies in agony or not ? You will be dead soon enough anyway and you won't know the agony (you are gone, disappeared). I don't think this illustrates my point accurately. It may put you on the wrong track but I have no better example at hand. I will see what you make of it Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I think I can speak both for myself and for Grantywanty when I say that we both think that your line of questioning is a cul-de-sac and that this is why it is best to stay away from it. I have been trying to see your point. And I have been trying to pinpoint why I think it's problematic. I'm not sure how much I can help you, but I have actually figured out some things for myself that I've been wondering about for quite a while. (Before, I was eating cookies as I was thinking about your post. In a moment of insight, I thought that would be a cool thing to say. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ) I told you before that I neither agree nor disagree. But I know this doesn't help you.
Okay. Although I don't see how you arrive at that? Have you tried it? Try it, and you'll see. If I eat this cookie and this cookie tastes good, does that really matter? If I get a good sleep tonight, does that really matter? If I get sick, does that really matter? If I live happily for the rest of my days, does that really matter? It really matters to me.
Another thought: If something does not influence anything else in any way whatsoever, it doesn't matter (to anyone/thing). The sun matters to the earth because the sun influences the earth by keeping it in orbit. Now imagine that the only things in the universe are the sun and the earth. Now imagine that the earth suddenly disappears. The sun now doesn't matter to anyone/thing. The sun doesn't matter. Now imagine the real universe as a whole, to what/who does the universe matter ?
Ofcourse it matters to you, but does it really matter ? If you don't see my point after reading my previous post (116), I don't think we are getting anywhere..
If something has intrinsic value it matters to someone, or else you wouldn't say it has intrinsic value.
I'm going to go out on a limb and psychologize a bit - do note that this is only a speculation that might apply, or not: What you actually might be after is some certainty about life. Either that things matter, or that they don't - as long as you know for sure which it is. If you knew they ultimately don't matter, you could settle for a kind of silent despair and small pleasures. If you knew they ultimately do matter, that would give you a sense of purpose in life. But either way, you would have some kind of certainty and direction in life, you would know what to make of things, of life. While it seems obvious to you that in regards to yourself and other people, things do matter - without the above-mentioned certainty and direction, the future seems overwhelming, and in the present you feel somewhat lost as to what to do, how to think about things, what attitude to have toward life. Yes?
Yes, this seems to follow. But how could one possibly work out all the relationships between all things?! One can't. And without knowing those relationships one can't know whether they "really" matter or not.
