The exercises that were going on provoked the North Koreans, they were in disputed territory, and the U.S. and South Koreans KNEW that. Their exercises and live ammo were falling into that disputed territory. If North Korean live rounds were falling into territory that the U.S. felt was OUR territory, you can bet we would do something about it. That is what provoked them. Or I should say, provoked their up and coming leadership. From what I can gather. The Chinese warned the Americans months in advance that now was not a good time to do these exercises. We KNEW it wasn't a good time to do these exercises, but did them anyway. The missile they launched off of L.A. was meant to be a warning. This is why they are calling for "restraint." They have a feeling that the U.S. wants to provoke a conflict. Them calling for restraint, is not a call intended for the North Koreans I believe, that is intended for the U.S. and it's allies. There is an area of disputed territorial boundary that has never been settled, and the North Koreans up and coming leadership needs to prove itself not weak. The U.S. also needs an excuse to "start something," both to deal with this nuclear issue on the Korean Peninsula, and to distract the world away from the fact that it has looted the world economy, and NONE of the world powers especially care to have the dollar as the world reserve currency, yet none cares to challenge the U.S. economic dominance directly yet. They all know how terribly corrupt our system is right now, and would prefer that we get our own house in order rather than having to do it for us. . . the criminals in charge are backed into a corner. The world very much needs the PEOPLE of the United States, their technological and scientific know how, the companies they started, their infrastructure, their sheer consumer culture and buying power. Yet the criminals that control us? If we use history as our guide, they see only one way out of this . . . war. They do not want to lose control over the people. They fear the people they control, and losing power over them, more than they fear other nations. . . .
It can't possibly be working out the way you claim, because the exercises only just started within the last 24 hours or so. I call BS. I see, and the best way to prevent a conflict and promote restraint, is to try and sneak a sub into US territorial waters and launch an SLBM off their heavily populated coast. Again, that's just too much of a stretch for me to take seriously. If China actually did that though, and they're that crazy, I'd return the favour by giving Beijing a nice fireworks and sonic boom show on New Year's. Or just cancel that giant debt, on the grounds of crazy mass-murdering communists launching missiles in US territorial waters. That's because China bet on the northern horse 60 years ago, and they wouldn't want to see that investment go to waste. They're obsessed with containing US influence even if it means erecting psycho states as buffers and belligerents. Give me a break, everything coming from NK's government and press claims the whole south is in dispute, not just some narrow border strip. Anything South Korea does other than dropping its drawers and bending over, is considered an offense. You're right about the North needing to prove the strength of its "leadership", but I don't see why South Korean villagers should be the cannon fodder for that. You think power games aren't also at work in China and NK? Have you ever watched them vote? How come we get Wikileaks releases on the US, but nothing notable from the Chinese? Do you honestly believe China is just a nation of 1.25 billion zombies with 50 million having some mild opinions on a few issues?
Actually, what else did they expect? The USA seem to have an other target in mind again, maybe it will help their shattering economy. Yay. But seriously, what else did they expect when they make their military training right on the doorstep of the North Koreans? What the Hell are they thinking? What would the North Koreans gain from attacking the South just like that? Nothing. They were provoked and so they reacted. Accidental shootings from the South in direction of the North? Lol..I don't think that the North Koreans knew at that point that it was all 'accidental'. ¬.¬ I wonder how the USA would react if Gim Jeong Il would suddenly feel like making some military trainings with Russia a few meters from US shores ¬.¬ This is all so interesting, as this all seemed to suddenly start when the USA was supposed to withdraw from the military base in the East, well, now suddenly they won't have to since it looks so tense between N. and S. Korea. Interesting. The USA and its constant warmongering is a fucking pest in this world. Instead of telling the two sides to calm the fuck down they rather say "Zomg, you can count on us, South Korea, we can't wait to barge in with our artillery to help you against those eviiiiiiiil Gim Jeong Il puppets!" What is also really interesting, recently there have been several alarms about bombs in Europe, but all of those bombs were fake. Scaremongering pure. Who was the first to warn us about those upcoming terrorist attacks? The USA. looooooooool This is good stuff for comedy.
Where would you like for South korea to do their exercises? Considering that they are right damn next to each other. And what was stopping No. Korea from doing the same type of "exercises"?
CptBork~ I don't disagree with anything you said, it was all pretty valid, and a pretty good analysis. Mostly it doesn't discount anything I was saying, it only adds a second perspective, which is, in the final analysis, true as well. The Chinese have their own secrete societies, the most powerful being called the "Black Dragon" which is a very powerful gangster society heavily entrenched throughout Asia and in all Asian/China towns around the globe. Those exercises have indeed started before the North Korean shelling, the South even admits it. I don't know why you need to "call B.S.?" Hell, just read any MSM article, do the research, read my last link, it states it right there, the South admits as much. The North felt threatened. Whether they actually did, that's immaterial really. These nutty politicians are all spiritually immature noobs as far as I'm concerned. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! If you don't understand the paradigm I have laid out as the logical one that explains the state of the world today, then that's fine, I don't really care. I learn from history. It's the same old story really. North Korea is just yesterday's Serbia (circa 1914). It's a back water, powerless pawn, easily inflamed by stupid shit. It is being used by bigger players to start a huge conflagration that really, has nothing to do with security issues, and has everything to do with global economic issues which are wholly controlled by the world's ruling elites. . . . And the masses of the world's population? The ones that are actually going to suffer? They have no interest and nothing to do with all this bullshit, they are mostly ignorant of what is going on. . . the people on this site included. . . China-Russia currency agreement further threatens U.S. dollar I mean, c'mon, really, what interest does N. Korea have in getting turned into a smoldering parking lot by starting shit? :shrug: It's only interest is proving to it's people that it can't be pushed around. . . and that is exactly what the U.S. is counting on. If this fails? Look for the U.S. to try to provoke the Chinese around Taiwan somehow. . .
How about the Sea of Japan? or the Korea Strait? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Looks to me there is a lot less chance of misunderstanding, and the Chinese never said they wouldn't be leery about having the exercises take place there. . . I believe the Yellow Sea is where the problem area is, right? Why go sporting for a fight? I have a sister, whenever I was little and got right in her face and said, "I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you. . " and a fight broke out? It didn't matter if she shoved me first? Got it? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Nope, sorry, I don't. I haven't got the mind of a savage barbarous war monger whose only thought is KILL, KILL, KILL. If I don't appreciate the finer details between different scenarios of imaginary killing, perhaps you should shoot me for being so lame. I don't think that is the primary issue here. Sorry for taking the wind out of the sail of your blood lust. :bugeye:
Listen, I have no trouble believing every government on the planet is corrupt to some degree, and the US government is clearly no exception to this rule. I still see zero evidence that these events are the workings of shadow governments planning things years in advance. I doubt anyone saw this specific incident coming two years ago, but that doesn't mean governments won't try to take advantage of these situations and manipulate them to their own ends when such opportunities arise. Obviously every nation has a self-interest, and all parties involved in this conflict will try to exploit it to their own benefit, but in no way does this demonstrate how everything is being controlled behind the scenes by secret societies. I don't know much about Chinese secret societies and conspiracy theories, although I'm sure there's a whole universe of myth, lore, and possibly a tiny sprinkle of truth to be explored there. Regardless, you haven't answered my question- if America's so corrupt to the core and thoroughly blinded by ruling elites, how come Wikileaks is still able to nail them, but has very little dirt on China by comparison? Which society is being manipulated and controlled more, do you think? I say as bad as things are in the US right now, compared to China it's still night and day. Can you point me to a direct quote from a representative of the South Korean government? I have seen no such admission of guilt or responsibility, rather the South Korea seems to be in inner turmoil because their military failed to act even after the shelling, nevermind beforehand. I looked at your sources and all I see is a game of "he said she said". A backwater it might be, but unlike Serbia circa 1914, North Korea has nukes. Plus by horrible misfortune, Seoul is located right up near the "border" where all the north's artillery is parked. North Korea is far from powerless, I assure you. You're right they get inflamed over ridiculous pretenses, and should South Korea just stop existing in order to appease them? What matters is that South Koreans have an interest in their own security, and we owe it to them to stand by them, if we expect others to stand by us in our own times of need. Furthermore, today it could be South Korea, if we gave that up it would be Japan tomorrow, and then for all we know Hawaii could be next on the communist checklist. Better to contain North Korea and its backers now, rather than wait, do nothing and and hope for them to be gentle and reasonable at their own convenience. Firstly, it gives military credibility to the porker who's about to take charge. Secondly, like I said, NK has nukes, so they don't need to fear a US assault, because the last thing the US needs right now is the prospect of nuclear war. IMO we should just level the playing field by increasing military assistance to South Korea and Japan, and raising the level of dialogue with them about having some nukes under their control... something to bark back at China's pitbull.
Yes, things are so great in North Korea, why? http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20040214&slug=korea14
China is now calling for emergency talks. I say that is a little and a little to late. In order to avoid further violence, North Korea needs to take the next action. It needs to apologize and pay damages...now.
Countries are not people and the same morality does not apply, though provocative South Korean/American exercises never warranted a counter-strikes: you can't counter-attack unless you absolutely have proof that you were attacked. Those were the kinds of ethics of the USA and Soviet Union for example, but North Korea has very different ethics than the USA or the former Soviet Union. North Korea NEEDS to be provocative. Its the only way the North Korean Elites can blackmail for aid without lessoning their power: by making real threats. Not only is it a shot sent outward to get attention, but its also a shot sent inward to the paranoid and auto-brainwashed elite that need to feel powerful and need military tensions to keep their minds off the destitute situation in the north. Add in the dieing God-King (Kim Jung Il) and all that is need to establish his son as his successor and its likely the North is going to be even more provocative. Its clear from events over the last few years that the North wants a one-on-one audience with the USA, they most likely want to establish a peace treaty and reduced sanctions, and they want to do it as soon as possible, preferably before the present God-king dies, this way they can insure a smooth transition to the new God-king: by making it appear that the up coming God-king tamed the enemy with his awesomeness thus warranting his establishment as the new God-king before the fact. Thus in any peace talks before the elder God-king dies the North's propaganda machine will make it appear all the up coming God-kings doing if peace talks succeed. I hope the Obama Administrations keeps up the "Kill with Silence" strategy. First of all do not reward the North for its behavior and second If no peace treat is achieved before the death of the elder God-King the transition will be less stable and I'm very much wishing it would collapse and finally end the suffering of the North Korean people.
I never said this was a plan, years in the making. It is a flash point. It is a common pattern. Once they rob and loot a nations economy, the war profiteers start a war. Here just happens to be one of the flash points. If you know anything about balance of power, state theory and all that jazz, this is just an area that they are trying to provoke a war. It's an ENGINEERED war. If we lived one hundred years ago or more, you would be the one that would believe that the Mexicans started the Mexican-American War. Or you would be the one that believed that the Spanish sunk the Maine, even though they had nothing to gain from it. . . If you actually bothered to investigate Wikileaks, you will find that the great majority of the information they publish is not so secret, but has been available to the public for quite some time. You will also find that Wikileaks is funded by George Sorros, it is an establishment organization, meaning, the don't actually publish or make public or disseminate any information that they don't want the public to know. Why do they publicize seemingly damaging information? Two possible reasons. First, for disinformation purposes. They release statistics that are usually far off of the truth. But since it is "leaked" and "anti-establishment" it must be the truth? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! The second reason they reveal actual facts that are no longer of much importance is as a stop gap measure. It is meant as a measure to incriminate the powerful within their own ranks, so that the population and others in power will demand their ousting. It's a way of eliminating rivals. When our foreign rivals see us "cleaning up our own mess" in this way, it buys our corrupt leaders and government time to maneuver in the international diplomacy arena. It's important to remember, Wikileaks has ties, it is NOT independent, it is associated with the CIA. The day a major investigation or government policy is launched because of something Wikileaks has done, come back to me and we'll chat. Just look at the reaction they have gotten when they have threatened to release the secrets of OTHER nations? Then they would be in really hot water. Right now, the U.S. doesn't give a shit. Why? Because they get their info from our intelligence agencies, and thus, they are given the "o.K." on what they can release, and what they can not release. But if they start releasing stuff from our intelligence establishment w/o the "ok" of other nations? Their staff will then hit the wall, you'll see. It won't happen though, wikileaks doesn't have the balls. Direct quote? No. But it is rather common knowledge. The name of the exercise was called, "Safeguarding the Nation" ‘Crisis Status’ in North Korea ~ NYT Now you are totally missing my entire point. If you leave them alone? They will do nothing. They were provoked. And I maintain, they will continue to be provoked until South Korea calls the U.S. out on our shinangins, or a war is started. If a war is avoided, then the U.S. will look else where to start a war before it has to enact a TARP II, and before the G8 meets again. At the next G8 there will certainly be more pressure ratcheted up for throwing out the Bretton Woods agreements and reworking the rules of the IMF. The ruling elites of the west (the split in the Rockefeller's and the Rothchilds dynasty DON'T want that, they would almost prefer a war I think.) If they can't get it out of this gambit, they will continue the Iran angle, or goad the Taiwanese, knowing that is another sore spot for China. Recently, I have also heard that the U.S. wants to help Vietnam assert some sort of claim of some islands? Of course, none of this is any of our business. . . . anything to piss of the Chinese, right? Good god man, are you serious? You sound like that Senator McCarthy guy from the Dark ages. You ascribe such sinister motives of other nations. What a joke. Why do we owe it to them to "stand by them?" This is the 21st century, there is NO nation on earth that actually wants to destroy another nation, save for a couple. I don't think the North has any desire to militarily conquer the South, and there aren't many educated people that believe that, do YOU actually believe that? And then, this slippery slope argument? Are you for real? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Precisely, NK has nothing to gain. The US however? It has everything to gain by having a war. Well, not the nation's people, but it's criminally insane leaders might THINK it is there only option left to stay in the drivers seat. Who knows how these terrorists think. Some of them might even think more nuclear proliferation is a good idea. . . . Nuclear proliferation. . . . Nice. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! As if SK or the Japanese are stupid enough to want that shit pushed on them. I think they are both rich enough and technologically advanced enough to have it if they wanted it. . . . as a people, I think they are just more sensible then that. Remember? The Japanese are the only people that have already been nuked once already, I think they have some experience in this area. I don't think you are readily going to convince that nation to build, carry, arm, or otherwise posses this evil. On top of that, the Black Dragon Society is heavily infiltrated the higher political echelons of Asian society over there, I think it would be next to impossible to get the backing to get those weapons in place over there. . . It would be the US greatest dream though, wouldn't it?
I am utterly speechless. I guess you and I cannot have a conversation if we cannot agree on the principles of right and wrong. I agree with everything you have said for the most part. NK is despicable, this is true. But one does not treat the ignorant, the cruel, and the despicable with cruelty, ignorance, and despicable behavior. And to say that this type of behavior is "O.K." between nation states, but not O.K. between people is to show a fundamental lack of understanding, or a thorough brainwashing by the education system and the MSM. I don't think you need to "prove" that anyone entered your territory and was shooting up the place. I think China is right, there needs to be immediate resolution of this territory dispute, as the ruling elites of the US are using it to push the buttons of hypersensitive crazies of the north in attempt to start a war. The people of the south don't want that. The people of the north don't want that. China doesn't want that. Hell, the whole damn world doesn't want that. The only people that do, are the same f***ing criminals that looted the world economy, and would now like to start a war of profit. One of my favorite quotes by Albert Einstein goes; “We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.” Obama is not in charge. He plays basketball and looks nice for the camera. Don't you know anything? :shrug: The people at the FED are calling the shots, and the guy that was in the Dept. of Defense when Bush left office and is still there, he has more power. There are people behind the scenes that will be telling him what to do, and it has nothing to do with peace, and has everything to do with money.
Military exercise is not cruel, ignorant or despicable behavior. A Nation can get away with being provocative far more then a individual can, but to a limit, certainly military exercise don't exceed that limit: they do not harm other nations. Yes, yes you do, or else your actions will be consider the first strike and you will be considered wrong. If you want to use an individual analogy: You can't shot someone for looking at your cross. territory dispute? Lets be logical, the US is bogged down in 2 wars already, they can't afford to enter a 3rd, its even unlikely the US could physically support a 3rd war at this time. More so if the US wanted a war with North Korea they would have started it years ago in the same pattern as we saw with Iraq. Again if this logic was true they would have done so already. Sure its possible, but all evidence shows that if there was a shadow government with that much power, they aren't stupid and know the limitations they have, North Korea would over extend their existing war efforts and further crash their cash cow that is the US economy. Again if they had that power and wanted North Korea for what ever motives they would have taken it years ago when it was most optimal, most likely mid to late 1990's when North Korea was at its weakest. Either your shadow government is not as strong as you believer or they aren't as motivated or both.
Wikileaks gives us all the gossip between diplomats about North Korea: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/30/world/asia/30korea.html
