Noah's Ark

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Mickmeister, Jan 3, 2011.

  1. Mircea Registered Member

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    70
    That's a really bad argument, because the Hebrew version of the Deluge is just a plagiarized copy of older written stories, and the Hebrew version doesn't even get it right. In fact, it contradicts itself. It says one pair of each animal was taken, then later it says 5 pairs of clean animals and 2 pairs of unclean animals (clean animals are fit for sacrifice, unclean animals are not).

    So, which was it? Was it one pair of all animals or was it 5 pairs of clean animals and 2 pairs of unclean animals?

    It says it rained for 40 days/nights, then the flood waters were on the face of the Earth for 40 days/nights and then the waters receded after 40 days/nights for a total of 120 days.

    Then it says the flood lasted 365 days. When does 120 days = 365 days?

    It's ridiculous to rely on a story that contradicts itself and is heavily flawed, not to mention written thousands of years after a few dozen such stories already existed.

    Nobody cares if they lied.

    We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim).

    That's called a parenthetical. Someone added that in later for clarification.

    The simple fact is the descendants of Anak are from the Nephilim. They may not have been in the town where the spies were (and thus the spies lied), but they were still in the area nonetheless.

    Fail.

    Joshua 15:13 Caleb son of Jephunneh was assigned Kiriath Arba (that is Hebron) within the tribe of Judah, according to the Lord’s instructions to Joshua. (Arba was the father of Anak.) 15:14 Caleb drove out from there three Anakites – Sheshai, Ahiman, and Talmai, descendants of Anak.

    Double fail.

    Joshua 21:9 They assigned from the tribes of Judah and Simeon the cities listed below. 21:10 They were assigned to the Kohathite clans of the Levites who were descendants of Aaron, for the first lot belonged to them. 21:11 They assigned them Kiriath Arba (Arba was the father of Anak), that is, Hebron, in the hill country of Judah, along with its surrounding grazing areas.

    Triple fail.

    Deuteronomy 1:26 You were not willing to go up, however, but instead rebelled against the Lord your God. 1:27 You complained among yourselves privately and said, “Because the Lord hates us he brought us from Egypt to deliver us over to the Amorites so they could destroy us! 1:28 What is going to happen to us? Our brothers have drained away our courage by describing people who are more numerous and taller than we are, and great cities whose defenses appear to be as high as heaven itself! Moreover, they said they saw Anakites there.”

    Quadruple fail.

    “the sons of the Anakim.”

    The Anakites were giant people (Num 13:33; Deut 2:10, 21; 9:2) descended from a certain Anak whose own forefather Arba founded the city of Kiriath Arba, i.e., Hebron (Josh 21:11).

    Quintuple fail.

    I hope you're not a christian, because that would be pretty sad to get beat up by an atheist like me.
     
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  3. SciWriter Valued Senior Member

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    The new Creation Museum in Kentucky features dinosaurs in their model of the Ark, dinos deemed small enough at the time (4000 years ago) to fit into the Ark.

    Dinosaurs were not mentioned in the man-inspired Bible since their fossils were unknown at the time of its writing. That oversight has now been corrected.

    Now, how come Noah didn’t catch more fish to eat? Well, because he only had two worms.
     
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  5. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    the fact that there is a contradiction is evidence of it not being a 'world' flood.

    there were tons of scripts telling of great floods,
    what made it into the bible is just a minority report.

    i would think when one heard of a flood tale, they would assume it happened at the same time as the other flood tales..



    ok, i see it there..they had used something real as an lie as opposed to making something up..
    or at least something believed to be real at the time,





    what is original translation? context? history?


    um, it is a general agreement around here that atheist tend to know the bible more than the theist , the standing argument is that the theist tend to have more faith in it and so does not question it as much as atheist.


    ditto for posting judgement in a comparative forum...

    we are supposed to be comparing differences, not 'who is right'..
     
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  7. yaracuy Banned Banned

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    You seem to me a reasonable person , Why would you think that the so called world was the same as the present.

    Would make more sense to think their world was in were is the present Persian gulf.
    10000 years ago the glaciers in Europa were melting . Keep in mind the water level have risen 100 metes. The current Persian gulf was a Valle were the rivers from Ira k, Syria, and from the mountain of Iran discharge their waters .
    Now if you read careful the passage about animals , I believe it says cattle first,
    So don't be to snobbish and adjust the interpretation .

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  8. SciWriter Valued Senior Member

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    Why were two animals set adrift from the Ark in a little boat?

    They were skunks.
     
  9. yaracuy Banned Banned

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    Are you a clown on this forum ?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  10. NMSquirrel OCD ADHD THC IMO UR12 Valued Senior Member

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    they were the sheep, noah's wife did it..
     
  11. SciWriter Valued Senior Member

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    Hi clowny squirrel and serious yaracuy,

    The Ark was a hundred-ring circus invented by clowns with frowns who fabricated that the rest of human kind were killed by their Creator, including children and their pets. What a tall tale. Have any more good ones?

    Some think that Noah's wife was named Yesah, but my research shows her real name to have been Joan of Ark. Better decipher those scripted scriptures better.
     
  12. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

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    3,714
    Sounds a bit fishy to me, I think you told that story just for the halibut.
     
  13. Stoniphi obscurely fossiliferous Valued Senior Member

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    3,254
    ..and the christian bible was written thousands of years after the actual events, from oral tradition carried out of Babylon by the Hebrew Semites. Those in turn were based on the Epic of Gilgamesh, the 'oldest story'. That is where the story of Utnaphishtum originated in written form.

    Of course, Utnaphishtum was later called "Noah" and the "gods" were replaced with "god", but the time was indeed quite far back there.
     
  14. X-Man2 We're under no illusions. Registered Senior Member

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    403
    We know about the Ark fairy tale but it's sometimes fun to play with the story. Of course way back then due to lack of technology,lack of world wide communication,lack of visual evidence on a world wide scale etc no one living at the time of this supposed flood could have possibly known details.In other words pretending for a moment there was a global flood,people of that day could not have known it was global,to them 200-300 miles would have been global.There simply was no way to size the flood to begin with.I imagine there was enough local flood events that happened and as a result people talked about em,past the stories down thru the generations.We know how stories change,grow in size etc once passed thru enough people.
     
  15. phyti Registered Senior Member

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    625
    Instead of parsing your quote, blue links to the replies were added.

    1. Only animals 'on the surface of the earth' were involved,
    therefore creatures living in water were exempt.
    Only a pair of each kind were needed, since breeding could produce
    the variations. The largest land animals (elephant, rhino, etc.)
    comprise only a small portion of all land animals. No explanation is
    given why the dinosaurs were not included. We can speculate that the
    vegetation after the flood would not be sufficient to sustain them
    in a fully populated earth.
    2. The Creator could calm the animals for the duration of the
    confinement similar to hibernation.
    3. The dove returned with a 'fresh' olive leaf as an indication of
    drained land surface, so all vegetation was not destroyed.
    4. Realistically some water species would not survive the turbulence
    of huge volumes of moving water, but this has to be taken in
    context. Flood damage results from fast moving masses of water from
    a single source or a restricted path. If the water source is global,
    that type of damage only occurs initially until the lower elevations
    are filled. After sea level is uniform, the water level just rises
    vertically, like filling a basin. The most convincing evidence is
    the remains of land animals. Some are groups of the same species
    composed of young and old. Mammoths found frozen near the Artic
    circle are preserved without deterioration. A quick death for all, and regardless of age.
    5. I don't have a definite answer for this. There may be other means
    of producing oxygen. Plant life recovers quickly in shallow basins
    after the water recedes.
    6. A better question, 'where did all the water come from?'. There
    was a canopy of water vapor around the earth similar to venus which
    provided a greenhouse effect. This and subterranean sources provided
    the volume needed to flood the earth. After altering the geography,
    the water would have settled in larger or more numerous bodies of
    water and underground. The new water-land boundaries are what you
    see today.
     
  16. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    53,966
    All the fish would have died. If the salt water mixed with the fresh, all the freshwater species would have died. Since the floodwater would be fresh, all the saltwater species would also have died.
     
  17. ULTRA Realistically Surreal Registered Senior Member

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    1,555
    There is historical circumstance in favour of Noah's Ark. Approximately 8,000 years ago the region we now know of as the Black Sea was fertile, farmed land. The outpouring of a massive glacial meltwater lake that covered most of Canada ruptured its natural dam and emptied into the Atlantic.
    The far end of the Med was low-lying arable land protected by a spur of land. This got washed away and the Med flowed in creating the Black Sea. This happened over the course of just a few decades. Legend suggests that there was a great flood and that Noah, who was known as something else then, evacuated much of the valuable livestock...and perhaps other animals. This was the subject of a recent documentary on T.V.
    The water would have still been briny, so much of the fish might have survived. Estuary fish would have been relatively unaffected.
     
  18. SciWriter Valued Senior Member

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    3,028
    Eden's long line…

    Methuselah lived for 969 years. He died on the 11th of Cheshvan of the year 1656 (Anno Mundi, after creation), 7 days before the beginning of the great flood. According to Rashi on gen. 7:4, the Holy One delayed the flood specially because of the 7 days of mourning for the righteous Methuselah in his honour.

    The recent find of Austi 2:5 scroll tells us that Adam was yet alive on that day, he, too, boarding the ark of Noah. In fact, I ran into him just the other day, looking innumerable years old, but aging quite gracefully. Eve was at his side, yet gleaming with the ripeness obtained from Eden’s apple.

    They revealed the formula for true apple cider, which would result in an elixir, not vinegar. Eden’s sinful apple, the cause of it, made for harsh apple cider, but, when it was heated with sulfurous brimstone it soon turned smooth, the Hell taken out of it!

    (Methuselah was son of Enoch, and the grandfather of Noah.)

    Adam was 4,732 years old but one day he didn’t look both ways when crossing the street and was run over by a truck.
     
  19. Mircea Registered Member

    Messages:
    70
    I never said it was. I merely said the Hebrew version of that story (and every story they plagiarized) is FUBAR.

    Yes, I know, I've read them all. The biblical account is not simply a "minority report." It contradicts all known Deluge accounts, and even that wouldn't be so bad, except that all other accounts are more realistic and credible than the biblical account. It is the outlier, and because it is, it can be readily dismissed.

    No kidding. As I pointed out on another thread, those accounts originating in eastern Asia and the Americas reference a meteor strike and attribute the meteor strike as the precursor or event that was the direct cause of the Deluge. Simultaneously, none of the accounts originating in Mesopotamia, Africa or western Asia mention a meteor.

    I also pointed out that in terms of science, if someone in Siberia saw a meteor, someone in Mesopotamia would never haven been able to see the meteor, for the same reason that if someone in Iraq is looking at the Sun, then someone in the US is looking at the Moon and cannot possibly see the Sun (it's called "spherical geometry").

    But of course. We don't arbitrarily reject something "just because." Many atheists spent years studying (real study not phony christian study) or in my case a decade or more, before coming to the conclusion that it was complete nonsense and that if it hadn't been for Emperor Theodosius, no one would have heard of it in this day and age.

    Well that's a character flaw on your part.

    If you're going to post evidence, make sure it's relevant and applicable, and don't cherry-pick, which is a rather typical christian trait, in addition to seeing only what they want to see.

    Here's another for you:

    Genesis 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days (and also after this)...

    After what? After the Deluge. So they did survive.

    Apparently, you can't kill a Nephilim.

    No, it's closer to 180 meters but some sources claim 240 meters (about 600 to 800 feet).

    Glaciers world-wide were melting because the average global air temperature rose from 54°F to 61°F in the short span of 54 years, and the reason that happened was because the western ice sheet in Antarctica was totally obliterated.

    There's a story several thousand years older than that even. It attributes the Deluge (flood is grotesquely incorrect -- a deluge can be a flood, but not all floods are deluges) to a naturally occurring event.

    That isn't entirely true.

    It's incredibly aggravating that people would examine the Deluge only from the perspective of the Hebrew account, which they also ridicule, and then totally ignore the more than 100 other accounts, many of which were written before the Hebrew account. Not only is that aggravating, it's illogical and inherently bad science.

    The Hebrew account is garbage, but let's compare it with other accounts anyway. Only the Hebrew and two other accounts (both from the Middle East and one is the Babylonian account) claim it was caused by a "god" thing. The other 100+ accounts claim it was a naturally occurring event, and more than 60 of those specifically mention a meteor as being the agent of destruction (see the earlier comments on that for clarification).

    The Hebrews and Babylonians claim it was a "punishment," but the other 100+ accounts reject that. The Hebrews are the only ones who claim it killed everyone on Earth.

    The Hebrews claim it lasted either 120 days or 365 days and I guess one day Yahweh will get off of his lard arse and make a final determination (or maybe it was 120 days on this Earth and 365 days on the other Earth in the other universe -- Universe #42). All other accounts put it at 3-5 days (the Sumerians put it at 6 days but they also say it was over in 4 days and took 2 days for most of the water to drain off).

    Less than 2 dozen accounts, all originating in the Middle East (Mesopotamia) claim animals were brought on board. Of those accounts, only the Hebrews claim to have brought animals aboard to save them. The other accounts claim enough animals were brought on board to eat. There are several accounts (I don't know the exact number) that claim their lords (these were not "gods") gave them the "seeds" of certain animals and plants to save. For all accounts outside of Mesopotamia, no attempt was made to save animals or use them for food.

    The Hebrews claim they bumbled onto high-ground in Mt Ararat, but all other accounts the people intentionally headed to high-ground for safety (whatever that might have been -- typically mountains).

    Obviously, the Hebrew version conflicts heavily and should be considered an outlier and thus properly rejected.

    Only the Hebrew version claims it was a global flood, and that is only because they claim it covered the whole Earth. No one else makes those claims.

    Of course there is. Only the Hebrews call it a flood. The descriptions provided by the other 100+ accounts are very much akin to a tsunami. Many describe the waters as "coming and going" or "rising and falling," and several of the east Asian and American accounts mention large waves and a few of those describe the waves "as tall as mountains."

    That doesn't make any sense. If you exclude the absurd Hebrew account, every one is describing the same event. The Sumerians actually date the Deluge to the Age of Leo, which would have been 10,000 BCE - 8,000 BCE and that is consistent with the dates given for the destruction of the western ice sheet in Antarctica. We know that 10,000 years ago, western Antarctica was virtually ice free.

    That's blasphemy.

    Genesis 7:2 You must take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, the male and its mate, two of every kind of unclean animal, the male and its mate, 7:3 and also seven of every kind of bird in the sky, male and female, to preserve their offspring on the face of the earth.

    Your claim that only a pair of each kind were needed quite clearly contradicts Yahweh's command to Noah to bring 7 pairs of every clean animal (eg 7 male sheep and 7 female sheep), and 2 pairs of every unclean animal (eg 2 hogs and 2 sows).

    The only way to make it work is to blaspheme by disrespecting and ignoring the written word of Yahweh.



    You can also speculate that lower elevations and depressions in the Earth would have acted as basins and held water for months, even years before it evaporated and not only would that kill the submerged plant-life, it would deny animals use of that plant-life for food.

    Vegetation would have been very, very scarce.

    Never been to Turkey or Greece, have you. Nope. Olive trees can grow at high elevations. You can't automatically assume it was a tree growing at sea level.

    That also contradicts the texts:

    Genesis 7:4 For in seven days I will cause it to rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the ground every living thing that I have made.”

    Rain could cause the damage to occur at any elevation and especially those elevations above sea level.

    That's very bad science. The mammoths died because they ate poisonous buttercups. Not all varieties of butter cups are poisonous, but quite a few are. Animals often die from eating poisonous fruits, berries or plant parts. Those mammoths did. They were not flash frozen, because the temperature was already below freezing. That's what mammoths do. They walk around frozen tundra areas eating grasses and such. And why, yes, there is a variety of buttercup that grows way up in the frozen cold of arctic circle in Siberia. Imagine that. That debunks claims that buttercups only grow in warm climes.

    If that were true then nothing could have survived on Earth, not to mention it would block light.
     
  20. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    That event certainly supports a large flood in the area, but not the arc story.
     
  21. ULTRA Realistically Surreal Registered Senior Member

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    Previously on Earth there have been 6 1/2 mass extinction events, we are halfway through the seventh. There is no record of a mass extinction in the previous 10,000 years, so I think we can discount the global cataclysm line. That the Hebrews thought "thier" world has been destroyed is, i think rather more parochrial.
     
  22. Me-Ki-Gal Banned Banned

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    4,634
    I think the flood event was caused by global warming and an event that happened right here in Missoula Montana played a big roll. It was an Ice dam that would form between the canyon Walls of the Clark Fork river . The ice dam would brake loose and all hell would rush to the Pacific ocean. It created the Scab lands in Washington state. It happened about 100 times . This events were about 12000 years ago and if it happened in other places in the world I could see how massive flooding could occur. Tsunamis every where . It could be enough to create the myths surrounding floods . Speculation is a gift. Don't knock it tell you try it
     
  23. ULTRA Realistically Surreal Registered Senior Member

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    Certainly the good ol' Earth is a highly active planet, and we are only here by a rare set of spectacular circumstances and God's grace. I can think of no good reason why we aren't still chimps. That the forest where we evolved turned into savannah was our good fortune, but the same global changes could just as easily have destroyed us. What is so contentious about a man building a boat and saving some animals? it happens all the time RE: Queensland, Australia. So it got exaggerated, so what? Stories always do.
     

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