Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by phlogistician, Nov 8, 2011.
Do you still not see your contradiction?
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Do you not realize that you post different RATES and think they are the same?
Here you say the relative speed is 300,000 miles per HOUR.
Which I agree with.
The post that I corrected you on, you said the relative speed was 300,000 miles per SECOND.
As in 1.6 times the speed of light.
I know. I made a mistake from my all too fallible memory.
That's why I said ''if my memory serves''.
That's fine, you made a mistake in post 525, but that doesn't explain your belligerent posts 533, 535, 537 or 539.
These were all after your mistake was pointed out by multiple people and yet you continued to assert that you were correct even when the error was made plain to see.
You really do need to SLOW DOWN and read for understanding.
Another example is represented by posts 543 and 544. These were posted within one minute of each other. They clearly represent a linked series of thoughts. Forum convention, if nor rules, would hold that two posts on the same point made within one minute really ought to be a single post.
It appears that you rush out your thought, hit post, and almost immediately realise you wanted to say more. Those are the actions of an impatient individual, with low attention span. Such individuals are not noted for comprehension, knowledge or original thought.
Even if the idea occured as an afterthought why not simply use the edit button to amend your post? This would be the polite thing to do. This would be the intelligent thing to do. This would be the frigging obvious thing to do.
Yes I am sorry for that. I have hardly used the edit button in the past and I keep trying to remind myself.
Heh, I think they are referring to all of the people who claim to have seen an ET or ET craft, such as the gang from Rendlesham Forest.
Not to say I buy into any conspiracy theories, but come on, it's not like they pull this stuff out of thin air. Many of the original leading conspiracy theorists were from the military or intelligence community.
Gordon Cooper says he saw a UFO land at Edwards AFB [I think it was Edwards]. He said it was filmed and he never saw the film again after one viewing. So yes, he is claiming [claimed] direct secret knowledge.
It was required by the petition?
Regarding government cover-ups: I can't account for claims like that of Cooper, or the men at Rendlesham Forest who claim to have seen a craft on the ground. I can imagine some possible explanations, but obviously these accounts are difficult to dismiss as simple errors. However, there are a few interesting facts to consider. Firstly, this documentary film that I posted in the UFO forum is quite striking for several reasons.
I had no idea that projects Sign, Grudge, and Bluebook, were made public so soon. They are all described in fair detail in the documentary, which was made in 1957! But these were secret projects while in progress.
So the first question that comes to mind is this: Why would the government engage in secret efforts to learn more about UFOs if it already had one at Roswell? The investigations by the AF were to determine the nature of these UFO anomalies. And they had no reason debunk Roswell because no one gave it a second thought. At that time it wasn't even a story.
Secondly, while I believe the UFO phenomenon is interesting and unresolved, I see a clear pattern of honest disclosure by the Government. The documentary linked is a great example of that. If the Government were trying to hide something, why would they allow Chop to describe this all in such great detail? Why would the Pentagon admit that not all events can be easily explained? Why would they admit to investigating these anomalous events? It would have been far easier to simply deny everything as nonsense.
Next, if you want a great source of UFO information, go to the Government files. Some of the best evidence for a true mystery is found in files at the NSA, the CIA, and other official sources. Much of this information was once classified but is no longer. So my question is, “What cover-up? Read all about it!”
In regards to official, declassified files, over time it can be seen that while there are often sections of reports blacked out, this is done at times, at least, to protect other information - not the information about the UFOs. You can read all about the alleged crafts observed. For example, in the case of Senator Russell, back in the 50s, who was travelling through the Soviet Union on a train, and who reported seeing two flying saucers lift off from a forested area as the train went by. Many sections of the original report had been blacked out. Later, the report was released in its entirety. The mission had been secret. The information protected was the who and where, not the what. What was secret was the trip the Senator made, not the report he made.
So when people talk about conspiracies, my response is, what conspiracy?!?! The best sources of information on UFOs are government files.
I think the point to remember about this dishonesty by the Gov. is that it is common knowledge that one only lies when trying to conceal a much more graver truth.
Assume for a moment that the day at Roswell, that there were some military heads who had never been informed on the secretive nature of UFO's, that when one of them crashed they leaked this information almost as soon as the incident happened. Then what we have is a military mess, as they try and clean up their problem by a patchwork of lies and deception.
One must admit, that this is how it looks, for sure. There is great evidence to suggest the story we heard at Roswell was in fact, the facts of the case. And ever since that day, it has almost been cornerstone for the Military to use your ''standard list'' of comets, stars, rockets, clouds, chinese lanterns ect. to explain away otherwise, unexplainable events.
We are often told that only 1% of all sightings cannot be accounted for. That I am sure is a very distorted percentage and what really happens is that the sightings that Military know they can't explain are often washed away with these terrestrial explanations. What makes this so shadey, is that this is an attempt to make the believers look like crackpots. It is an attempt to divert all the attention away from any kind of extraterrestrial explanation, which would be folly even for a disbeliever to simply shrug away, since there is an overwhelming body of evidence to suggest something otherwordly is happening in our airspace.
''Why would the government engage in secret efforts to learn more about UFOs if it already had one at Roswell?''
Why not? When that ship crashed, it was taken away under highly secretive conditions, straight after they announced they came into possession of a flying disk.
It wasn't until much later they released papers they typed up that year explaining what happened at Roswell, it was a project called Mogul, or so they claim. There are in fact, great big holes in the Mogul explanation and parts were the evidence just does not fit the bill. In fact it has been scrutanized by professionals in their field and have more or less came to the same conclusions, it was most likely configured by the Governement in line of their third explanation of what happened at Roswell that day involving a weather balloon, but the evidence has been so clearly tailored one surely cannot take it at face value.
So even if a ship had crashed, it does not mean we would not continue to see the army conduct secret investigations into them. If anything, thiss has proven they are still very very interested. In fact, you can simply check memo's by army commenders that the officials have been soberly concerned about this for many years, even after Roswell.
That statement doesn't even make sense.
No one took it seriously at the time. Beyond the initial denial, there was no need for a cover up. The story was completely forgotten for the next 30 years.
There are anecdotes and a few contradiictions. That is not great evidence for ETs. There is great evidence something unusual happened. But even some of the Roswell researchers gave up because people like the mortician were found to be lying. And much of the so-called evidence is not what is clamed.
For example, consider the memo where Hoover asked to see the disc retieved from the Lousiana case. In fact it had already been established, as is seen in a previous memo, that the disc was only a about two feet in diameter. Hoover was interested because of concerns that it might be some sort of spy device. But when you watch these lame shows on TV, they always ignore the size of the disc - it was a toy.
The very first teletype to arrive at the FBI stated that what was found at Roswell was a disc tethered to a balloon. You never see this memo on TV, do you.
Does ET use balloons?
The official government position is that some UFOs are seemingly inexplicable and should be studied by the appropriate scientific groups. There is just no evidence for ET or a threat to the nation. Most of the explanations that you cite come from the academic community, not the Government.
That actual number from Bluebook was 14.7%, IIRC. The number commonly cited by people like Stan Friedman is 10%. I personally think the number is now 1% or less because it is far easier to file a report. It used to takes some work. Now one only needs to make a post at the reporting center. So every teenager with a wild imagination can file a report now.
Arguments like yours are the reason it is difficult for people like me to discuss the subject. You fly off the deep end far too easily. You want it to be true so badly that logic goes right out the window.
Case in point. I argued that there is plenty of evidence that there is no cover up. You responded "Exactly", and then argued for a cover up.
Are you an English speaking person, I don't understand why you can't understand this:
''I think the point to remember about this dishonesty by the Gov. is that it is common knowledge that one only lies when trying to conceal a much more graver truth''
In other words, the point to remember is that the dishonesty by the Government is that it is common knowledge to lie about something to hide a greater truth.''
And why can you not understand this?
Now, to the Roswell case. I know for a fact it was taken seriously - I don't understant how you can sit there and say it wasn't. It was published on the front pages of many newspapers, how is that not taking it seriously? Let us also remember, the Americans are not the brightest gene pool in the world, I very much doubt that no one read that paper and was not startled by the claims.
And yes, there are many anecdotes, many contradictions. Even project mogul contains a few gems. But saying something unusual happened, is a very safe bet. I have not once said they are aliens, but I have come to note that if they are, it would answer for a lot; like thousands of years of paintings depicting these objects in the skies, to a more more in-depth documentation of sightings only within the last 100 years. Thousands upon thousands (and dare I say it again) upon thousands of sightings have been reported, so something independant of the Roswell case, one can honestly admit something ''strange is happening''. Again, it is a very conserved answer.
As for liars, at the Roswell scene, I have not seen many and none of the researchers simply ''gave up''. That is without good understanding into it's history. In fact, many notable investigators have spent years investigating what happened, how it happened, who saw it ect ect. One notable investigator is Stanton Freidmann who has studied the UFO phenomenon for many years. There are many other investigators who have not simply ''gave up''.
As for the memo, who cares?
Something extraordinary crashed that day, the military changed their claims on what it was three times, plus we have first hand witnesses saying this was no balloon. And if it was a saucer, it is doubtful it was ours. It wasn't until decades later the military tried to create a flying saucer, a secret project which was soon a case of the cat had been let out of the bag. Why did they do this? Why were they tampering with what looks like, blatent attempts are recreating flying saucers usinga specific type of propulsion system? Fair enough, their attempts failed miserably as it hardly even got off the ground, but one might say that is evidence that what crashed at Roswell, that flying disk was not ours. And by the look of the witness reports, had markings suggesting it might not have been of this world.
''The very first teletype to arrive at the FBI stated that what was found at Roswell was a disc tethered to a balloon. You never see this memo on TV, do you.''
Let me see it, because there are plenty more memo's which contradict the weather balloon statement, such as the Guy Hottel Memorandum which many take to be the smoking gun. This FBI memo clearly states that two UFO's went crashing down in the New Mexico region. Military informants informed him they crashed due to strange technical disabilities. Not to mention, there are now thousands of perviously top secret memorandums which clearly shows the FBI was full of deceit at one point. In fact, the FBI director Mr Kelly, once said that the investigation of UFO's have never been within the jurisdiction of the FBI, it was only a few years later, the FBI released about 1,100 documents on UFO's.
What does this tell me about your teletype, it tells me I cannot trust it.
''The official government position is that some UFOs are seemingly inexplicable and should be studied by the appropriate scientific groups. There is just no evidence for ET or a threat to the nation.''
Soo unbelievably wrong.
There have been tens upon tens of pilots who have suffered ill-fates trying to search these objects down. Some of their last video recordings are spine chilling to say the least.
It was, according to some officials, decided that interception of these objects would no longer happen.
Nick Pope, who worked for the Ministry of Defence has also been correctly stated saying:
''Anything that penetrates the airspace is a matter of National Security.''
''That actual number from Bluebook was 14.7%, IIRC. The number commonly cited by people like Stan Friedman is 10%. I personally think the number is now 1% or less because it is far easier to file a report. ''
14%, I'd rather agree with that. 1% is silly.
Separate names with a comma.