Discussion in 'Human Science' started by A4Ever, Aug 14, 2002.

  1. A4Ever Knows where his towel is Registered Senior Member

    I have a friend who looks down on nice people. He considers them weak and he can't resist 'hurting' them. He has no respect for them.

    Is niceness just a Christian relic?

    People seem to respect harsh people more than nice ones.

    Why? How?

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  3. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

    1) Decency was around a long time before organised religions.

    2) I don't respect cruel or mean people.
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  5. A4Ever Knows where his towel is Registered Senior Member

    Good point.

    And decency is perhaps a better word than niceness. (which is probably not even a word)

    Why do you think this friend feels the need to be cruel?
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  7. MRC_Hans Skeptic Registered Senior Member

    People want to be loved.
    If they are not loved, they want to be respected.
    If they are not respected, they want to be feared.
    If they are not feared, they want to be despiced.

  8. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    It takes more strength to be nice often than it does to be an ass.
  9. A4Ever Knows where his towel is Registered Senior Member

    That may be, but then why is cruelty respected more?
  10. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Who's it respected by? And what people are being respected for being cruel?
  11. fadingCaptain are you a robot? Valued Senior Member

    I can't think of a time cruelty is respected except maybe in a completely fascist state or by little 10 year old boys.

    Although, the business world comes close. Things like deceit, hidden agendas, and extreme egoism is respected here. Why? Not sure, lemme go ask some people...

    *Spelling edit
  12. A4Ever Knows where his towel is Registered Senior Member

    See the first post: my friend does not apreciate nice people. He considers them weak. He respects people like him: harsh, cruel. I don't think he is an exceptional case.

    A reply could be: then drop the loser. Well, that's the second thing: the cruel person gets a lot of credit. He is respected for acting the way he does. A nice person gets ditched by his friends much quicker.

    Why the different limits?
  13. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Being a ruthless ass is respected in business mainly because alligning yourself with the ruthless makes you more likely to be successful.

    Assholes are respected in real life god only knows why. Thinking about the respected assholes in my school I seem to recognize that every ass that's respected tends to have some other outsanding quality about him that other people like in a person. Such as musical/artistic taste (or, what I would call, no taste). Being something of an ass myself (though, not nearly in the way you describe your friend ass) I can tell you that I think some people respected and loved me, others hated me and could not stand me; but all of them had an interest in me. Very few people can I think of who hold no opinion on me.

    By the way, your friend is just plain wrong. If he has to make a point to put down others who have the ability to be nice around him than he either has problems dealing with his own personality or is just a weak person who can only feel strong by trying to make others feel weak. That's my guess, anyway.
  14. m0rl0ck Consume! Conform! Obey! Registered Senior Member

    Nice will get you tolerance.
    Honesty will get you respect.
    Honest is more imporant than nice.

    Indiscriminate cruelty is just stupid, all that will get you is lots and lots of personal space

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  15. ~The_Chosen~ Registered Senior Member


    Depends on the term "nice." May it be a girl or guy. Nice guys don't get far. They aren't in control, demanding, they are more usually inferior.


    • Supplicate
    • Seek approval
    • Are desperate
    • Needy
    • Clingy
    • Can't do well on their own
    • etc. (you get the point)

    Like I said, it depends on what you consider "nice." That list, if I see all those traits in a man or woman, I consider them nice people.

    Nice people could easily be walked over by other people. Nice people don't walk over nice people.

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    This all relates to psychology and the Don Juan philosophy, which so far has NOT been debunked.

    It's all about demonstrating value, challenge, confidence, etc.

    CONFIDENCE is the main issue here that separates the nice guys. They have none and in order to succeed in life you need to have confidence and high self-esteem and self-worth.

    Basically, powerlessness is a sorry state of affair that everyone tries to avoid. The more powerless you are, the less respect you get.

    Our culture may brainwash the weak minded to think this and that, but most of the time, our culture is full of bullshit.

    Take a look at history, religion seriously affect how our cultures all over the world are. Premarital sex is evil? How many women think that yet have oral sex, etc? Sexual activity *is* sex.

    Religion is dying and more people are no longer brainwashed and acquire "tunnel vision."
  16. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Chosen, Don Juan takes a very interesting definition of nice.

    Here is what I consider a nice human being;
    - courteous
    - polite
    - thoughtful
    - mindful

    What you are talking about is the stereotypical "nice-guy" or "the perenial friend". The guy who every girl wants to chum around with but would never want to be romantically involved in.
  17. ~The_Chosen~ Registered Senior Member

    Yep, no romantic involvement.

    Your definition of "nice" is my definition of a gentleman.
  18. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Ah, yes, well that would make sense!
  19. Joeman Eviiiiiiiil Clown Registered Senior Member


    I don't think what you said is the niceness A4ever is inquiring about. Sometimes you should take a break from Don Juan website and think for yourself.
  20. ~The_Chosen~ Registered Senior Member

    You're ALMOST OUT OF THAT TUNNEL!!!! See the light yet??

    Who gets hurt? The nice guys or the harsh guys?

    Who's easier "push-over"? The nice guys or what?

    Who do you think could take care of themselves better? The strong guy or the nice guy? hmmm...

    Think for myself?

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    I'm thinking what's best for myself. I had two options, open my mind to the Don Juan mindset or be brainwashed and "nice guy" for life.

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    You're almost out of that tunnel Joeman...keeping going see that light? follow it!....

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  21. ~The_Chosen~ Registered Senior Member

    Since "Hoeman" has problems, I'll answer it quote style

    He shouldn't hurt them. But then again if you "help" them, it'll work against you. They'll see that they are actually "weak" and hate you for showing them the truth.

    Some accept their own errors and look at themselves, the mirror of truth, then become successful for it.

    Others refuse to see the light, they are weak, the truth "hurts" too much for them to consider it. Thus, they are stuck in that little tunnel for the rest of their lives.

    They could be related. But religion has seriously influneced our culture and how we percieve things. Society, the media, etc. all have their effects at brainwashing.

    Usually, you could associate "harsh" with "powerful." Mostly everyone respects the powerful.

    Very interesting question. It's all about value and self-respect. The more you respect yourself, the more others will respect you. Do you think nice guys respect themselves? Aren't they those unconfident bunch?

    Who gets farther in life? Who is more dependable and capable? The nice-shy guy or the confident high self-esteem guys?

    That's what is my perception

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    Note to HOEMAN!!

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    The Don Juan is a way of life. It's how you should live. In control of your destiny, yourself. Not being weak, being strong. It is about getting women (instinct) but it is not all about that.

    Most people believe "it's all luck" if anything right? Wrong, those that succeed, make things happen, they are confident in what they do. That is the Don Juan mindset.

    See the light yet?

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  22. Bobby Lee member Registered Senior Member


    Being pleasent in general is a sigh of emotional maturity. Being rude and lacking manners in ones personality shows emotional issues and lack of maturity, in my opinion!

    This is what I think;


    Be honest • don’t deceive, cheat or steal • be reliable — do what you say you’ll do • Have the courage to do the right thing • Build a good reputation • be loyal — stand by your family, friends and country
    Treat others with respect; follow the Golden Rule • Be tolerant of differences •Use good manners, not bad language • Be considerate of the feelings of others •Don’t threaten, hit or hurt anyone • Deal peacefully with anger, insults and disagreements
    Do what you are supposed to do • Persevere: keep on trying! • Always do your best • Use self-control • be self-disciplined • Think before you act — consider the consequences • be accountable for your choices
    Play by the rules • Take turns and share • be open-minded; listen to others• don’t take advantage of others • don’t blame others carelessly
    Be kind • be compassionate and show you care • Express gratitude • Forgive others • Help people in need
    Do your share to make your school and community better • Cooperate •Stay informed; vote • Be a good neighbor • Obey laws and rules • Respect authority • Protect the environment

    When we are trusted others give we because they do not feel they need contracts to assure that we will meet our obligations. They believe in us. That is satisfying. But there’s a downside: we must constantly live up to the expectations of others and refrain from competitive, self-serving behavior that tarnishes if not destroys relationships, both professional and personal. Simply refraining from lies and deception is not enough. Trustworthiness is the most complicated of the six core ethical values and concerns a variety of behavioral qualities — qualities like honesty, integrity, reliability, and loyalty.
    There is no more fundamental ethical value than honesty. We associate honesty with people of honor, and we admire and trust those who are honest. However, honesty is a broader concept than many may realize. Honesty in communications requires a good-faith intent to convey the truth as best we know it and to avoid communicating in a way likely to mislead or deceive.
    There are three dimensions:
    Truthfulness —The obligation of truthfulness precludes intentional misrepresentation of fact (lying). Intent is the crucial distinction between truthfulness and truth itself. Being wrong is not the same thing as being a liar, although honest mistakes can still damage trust insofar as they may show sloppy judgment.
    The obligation of sincerity precludes all acts, including half-truths, out-of-context statements, and even silence that are intended to create beliefs or leave impressions that are untrue or misleading.
    In relationships involving legitimate expectations of trust, honesty may also require candor, forthrightness, and frankness, imposing the obligation to volunteer information that another person needs to know.
    Honesty in conduct prohibits stealing, cheating, fraud, subterfuge, and other trickery. Cheating is a particularly foul form of dishonesty because one not only seeks to deceive but to take advantage of those who are not cheating. It is a two-far: It is a violation of trust and fairness. Not all lies are unethical, even though all lies are dishonest. Huh? That is right, honesty is not an inviolate principle. Occasionally dishonesty is ethically justifiable, as when the police lie in undercover operations or when one lies to criminals or terrorists to save lives, But don’t kid yourself: occasions for ethically sanctioned lying are rare and require serving a very high purpose indeed, — not hitting a management, -pleasing sales target, or winning a game, or avoiding a confrontation. We are talking saving a life, that sort of thing.
    The word integrity comes from the word integer, meaning “one”, or wholeness. This means there are no divisions in an ethical person’s life, no difference in the way she makes decisions from situation to situation, no difference in the way she acts at work and at home, in public and alone. At one time or another, we all have allowed our behavior to depart from our conscience or to vary according to locale. Even so, almost all of us have lines we will not cross; our challenge is to draw the line around the Pillars, because she must know who she is and what she values, the person of integrity takes time for self-reflection, so that the events, crises and seeming necessities of the day do not determine the course of her moral life. She stays in control. She may be courteous, even charming, but she is never duplicitous. She never demeans herself with obsequious behavior toward those she thinks might do her some good. She is trusted because you know who she is: what you see is what you get.
    The four enemies of Integrity:
    Things we want
    Things we do not want
    A refusal to see a situation clearly
    An end-justifies-the-means attitude

    Reliability (Promise-Keeping)
    When we make promises or other commitments that create a legitimate basis for another person to rely upon us to perform certain tasks, we undertake moral duties that go beyond legal obligations. The ethical dimension of promise keeping imposes the responsibility of making all reasonable efforts to fulfill our commitments. Because promise-keeping is such an important aspect of trustworthiness, it is important to: Avoid bad-faith excuses— Honorable people interpret their contracts and other commitments in a fair and reasonable manner and not in a way designed to rationalize noncompliance or create justifications for escaping commitments. Avoid unwise commitments— Be cautious about making commitments that create ethical obligations. Before making a promise consider carefully whether you are willing and likely to keep it. Think about unknown or future events that could make it difficult, undesirable, or impossible. Sometimes, all we can do is promise to do our best.
    Avoid unclear commitments— Since others will expect you to live up to what they think you have promised to do, be sure that, when you make a promise, the other person understands what you are committing to do.
    Loyalty is a special moral responsibility to promote and protect the interests of certain people, organizations, or affiliations. This duty goes beyond the normal obligation we all share to care for others. Some relationships — husband-wife, employer-employee, and citizen-country — create an expectation of allegiance, fidelity, and devotion. Limitations to Loyalty— Loyalty are a tricky thing. It is not uncommon for friends, employers, co-workers, and others who have a claim on us to demand that their interests be ranked first, even above ethical considerations. Loyalty is a reciprocal concept, however, and no one has the right to ask another to sacrifice ethical principles in the name of a special relationship. Indeed, one forfeits a claim of loyalty when so high a price is put on maintaining the relationship. Prioritizing Loyalties, because so many individuals and groups make loyalty claims on us, it is often impossible to honor them all simultaneously. Consequently, we must rank our loyalty obligations in some rational fashion. In our personal lives, for example, most people expect us to place the highest degree of loyalty on our family relationships. It is perfectly reasonable, and ethical, to look out for the interests of our children, parents and spouses even if we have to subordinate our obligations to other children, neighbors, or co-workers in doing so.
    Safeguarding Confidential Information.
    Loyalty requires us to keep secrets or information learned in confidence. Avoiding Conflicting Interests. Employees and public servants have an additional responsibility to make all professional decisions on merit, unimpeded by conflicting personal interests. Their goal is to secure and maintain the trust of the public, to whom they owe their ultimate loyalty.
    2. RESPECT

    The way one shows respect varies, but its essence is the display of regard for the worth of people, including oneself. We have no ethical duty to hold all people in high esteem or admire them, but we are morally obligated to treat everyone with respect, regardless of who they are and what they have done. We have a responsibility to be the best we can be in all situations, even when dealing with unpleasant people. Respect focuses on the moral obligation to honor the essential worth and dignity of the individual. Respect prohibits violence, humiliation, manipulation, and exploitation. It reflects notions such as civility, courtesy, dignity, autonomy, tolerance, and acceptance. Civility, Courtesy and Decency. A respectful person is an attentive listener, although his patience with the boorish need not be endless (respect works both ways). Nevertheless, the respectful person treats others with consideration, conforming to accepted notions of taste and propriety, and doesn’t resort to intimidation, coercion or violence except in extraordinary and limited situations to teach discipline, maintain order or achieve social justice. Punishment is used in moderation and only to advance important social goals and purposes.
    An ethical person exercises personal, official, and managerial authority in a way that provides others with the information they need to make informed decisions about their own lives.
    An ethical person accepts individual differences and beliefs without prejudice and judges others only on the content of their character.
    Life is full of choices. Being responsible means being in charge of our choices and, thus, our lives. It means being accountable for what we do and who we are. It also means recognizing that what we do, and what we do not do; matters and we are morally on the hook for the consequences. Responsibility makes demands on us. It imposes duties to do what we can, not because we are being paid or because we will suffer if we do not, but simply because it is our obligation to do so. The essence of responsibility is continuous awareness that our capacity to reason and our freedom to choose make us morally autonomous and, therefore, answerable for how we use our autonomy and whether we honor or degrade the ethical principles that give life meaning and purpose. Beyond having the responsibility to be trustworthy, respectful, fair, and caring, ethical people show responsibility by being accountable, pursuing excellence and exercising self-restraint. They exhibit the ability to respond to expectations.
    An accountable person is not a victim and does not shift blame or claim credit for the work of others. He considers the likely consequences of his behavior and associations. He recognizes the common complicity in the triumph of evil when nothing is done to stop it. He leads by example. Pursuit of Excellence
    The pursuit of excellence has an ethical dimension when others rely upon our knowledge, ability, or willingness to perform tasks safely and effectively. Diligence. It is hardly unethical to make mistakes or be less than “excellent”, but there is a moral obligation to do one’s best, to be diligent, reliable, careful, prepared, and informed.

    Responsible people finish what they start, overcoming rather than surrendering to obstacles and excuses. Continuous Improvement. Responsible people look for ways to do their work better.
    Responsible people exercise self-control, restraining passions and appetites (such as lust, hatred, gluttony, greed and fear) for the sake of reason, prudence, and the duty to set a good example. They delay gratification if necessary and never feel it is necessary to “win at any cost”. They realize they are as they choose to be, every day.

    Most would agree that fairness and justice involve issues of equality, impartiality, proportionality, openness, and due process. Most would agree that it is unfair to handle similar matters inconsistently. Most would agree that it is unfair to impose punishment that is not commensurate with the offense. Beyond that, there is little agreement. Fairness is another tricky concept, probably more subject to legitimate debate and interpretation than any other ethical value. Disagreeing parties tend to maintain that there is only one fair position (their own, naturally). However, while some situations and decisions are clearly unfair, fairness usually refers to a range of morally justifiable outcomes rather than discovery of one fair answer.
    In settling disputes or dividing resources, how one proceeds to judgment is crucial, for someone is bound to be disappointed with the result. A fair person scrupulously employs open and impartial processes for gathering and evaluating information necessary to make decisions. Fair people do not wait for the truth to come to them; they seek out relevant information and conflicting perspectives before making important judgments.

    Decisions should be made without favoritism or prejudice.
    Fairness requires that an individual, company, or society correct mistakes, promptly and voluntarily. It is improper to take advantage of the weakness or ignorance of others.
    5. CARING

    Caring is the heart of ethics. It is scarcely possible to be truly ethical and not genuinely concerned with the welfare others. That is because ethics is ultimately about our responsibilities toward other people. If you existed alone in the universe, there would be no need for ethics and your heart could be a cold, hard stone without consequence to anyone or anything. It is easier to love “humanity” than it is to love people. People who consider themselves ethical and yet lack a caring attitude toward individuals tend to treat others as instruments of their will. They rarely feel an obligation to be honest, loyal, fair or respectful except insofar as it is prudent for them to do so, a disposition which itself hints at duplicity and a lack of integrity. A person who really cares feels an emotional response to both the pain and pleasure of others. Oddly enough, though, it is not uncommon for people to be remarkably ungracious, intolerant, and unforgiving toward those they love — while at the same time showing a generous spirit toward strangers and business associates.
    Go figure.
    Of course, sometimes we must hurt those we truly care for and some decisions, while quite ethical, do cause pain. However, one should consciously cause no more harm than is reasonably necessary to perform one’s duties. The highest form of caring is the honest expression of benevolence. This is sometimes referred to as altruism, not to be confused with strategic charity. Gifts to charities to advance personal interests are a fraud. That is, they are not gifts at all. They are investments or tax write-offs.

    The concept of citizenship includes civic virtues and duties that prescribe how we ought to behave as part of a community. The good citizen knows the laws and obeys them, yes, but that is not all. She volunteers and stays informed on the issues of the day, the better to execute her duties and privileges as a member of a self-governing democratic society. That is, she does more than her “fair” share to make society work, now and for future generations. Such a commitment to the public sphere can have many expressions, such as conserving resources, recycling, using public transportation, and cleaning up litter. The good citizen gives more than she takes. When we say something is a civic duty, we imply that not doing that duty is unethical. Yet, that can be a harsh and erroneous judgment. If one has a duty to be honest, caring, fair, respectful, and responsible, then we mean it is ethically wrong to be the opposite of those things. However, does that then mean that, if one has a “civic duty” to stay informed, one is unethical if one is ignorant? Certainly, we do not have to admire people who take their citizenship for granted. It is important, however, to make the distinction between what is ethically mandated and what is merely desirable and worthy of emulation.
    We judge ourselves by our best intentions, our most noble acts, and our most virtuous habits. We are judged by our last worst act. Conscientious people who want to do their jobs well often fail to adequately consider the morality of their professional behavior. They tend to compartmentalize ethics into two domains: private and occupational. Fundamentally, decent people thereby feel justified doing things at work that they know to be wrong in other contexts. They forget that everyone’s first job is to be a good person. People are especially vulnerable to rationalizations when they seek to advance a noble cause. “It is all for a good cause” is a seductive rationale that loosens interpretations of deception, concealment, conflicts of interest, favoritism, and violations of established rules and procedures. In making tough decisions, do not be distracted by rationalizations. Here are some of the most common. If it is Necessary, It is Ethical!
    This rationalization is based on the false assumption that necessity breeds propriety. The approach often leads to ends-justify-the-means reasoning and treating tasks or goals as moral imperatives. The False Necessity Trap as Friedrich Nietzsche put it, “necessity is an interpretation, not a fact.” We tend to fall into the “false necessity trap” because we overestimate the cost of doing the right thing and underestimate the cost of failing to do so. If it is Legal and Permissible, It is Proper This substitutes legal requirements (which establish minimal standards of behavior) for personal moral judgment. This alternative does not embrace the full range of ethical obligations, especially for those involved in upholding the public trust. Ethical people often choose to do less than the maximally allowable, and more than the minimally acceptable. I Was Just Doing It for You! This is a primary justification for committing “little white lies” or withholding important information in personal or professional relationships, such as performance reviews. This rationalization pits the values of honesty and respect against the value of caring. An individual deserves the truth because he has a moral right to make decisions about his own life based on accurate information. This rationalization overestimates other people’s desire to be “protected” from the truth, when in fact most people would rather know unpleasant information than believe soothing falsehoods. Consider the perspective of people lied to: If they discovered the lie, would they thank you for being considerate or would they feel betrayed, patronized or manipulated? I’m Just Fighting Fire With Fire This is the false assumption that promise breaking, lying and deceit are justified if those with whom you are dealing routinely engage them in. It Doesn’t Hurt Anyone Used to excuse misconduct, this rationalization falsely holds that one can violate ethical principles so long as there is no clear and immediate harm to others. It treats ethical obligations simply as factors to be considered in decision-making, rather than as ground rules. Problem areas: Asking for or giving special favors to family, friends or public officials, disclosing nonpublic information to benefit others, using one’s position for personal advantage. Everyone’s Doing It This is a false, “safety in numbers” rationale fed by the tendency to uncritically treat cultural, organizational, or occupational behaviors as if they were ethical norms, just because they are norms. Its OK If I Don’t Gain Personally This justifies improper conduct done for others or for institutional purposes on the false assumption that personal gain is the only test of impropriety. A related, but more narrow excuse, is that only behavior resulting in improper financial gain warrants ethical criticism. I’ve Got It Coming People who feel they are overworked or underpaid rationalize that minor “perks” — such as acceptance of favors, discounts or gratuities — are nothing more than fair compensation for services rendered. This is also used as an excuse to abuse sick time, insurance claims, overtime, personal phone calls, and personal use of office supplies. I Can Still Be Objective This rationalization ignore the fact that a loss of objectivity always prevents perception of the loss of objectivity. It also underestimates the subtle ways in which gratitude; friendship, anticipation of future favors, and the like affect judgment. Does the person providing you with the benefit believe that it will in no way affect your judgment? Would the person still provide the benefit if you were in no position to help?

    Bobby lee

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  23. A4Ever Knows where his towel is Registered Senior Member

    Exactly! New problem: the fact that he has problems with his own personality is a new source of power for him, since he claims to know he is being a prick because he has personal trouble and trouble with the way he acts as a reaction to them... Neverending story.

    The second thing he will probably admit after a couple of beers, but again, it will bring you nowhere with him.

    He is intelligent, he can adapt, he can seem like a normal guy, he has a looking down on others sense of humour which can be funny sometimes,...

    You describe how it should be, but this is not my exerience. Friend A, who is the prick, had a friend B, who is a nice person. I know, cause friend B has been my friend for a long time. Well: A totaly destroyed B, who was being honest and nice. There was no tolerance, only bashing.

    Luckily B seems to have moved on.

    Is that really the only way to get somewhere? I hope not. It just doesn't feel right to be demanding and all. Maybe another Christian relic.

    The second thing is true, the first one not. I strife to be fairly nice, but still friend A did NOT walk over me. I stopped him.

    Maybe it is a question of knowing when to act how. Or is it really a question of BEING?

    Has anyone read the Steppenwolf by Hesse? The main character gets the pieces of a personality and puts them on a board in various manners. He then sees that noone is one dimensional and that he can put the pieces on the board as he sees fit. I like that. Next time he looks in the mirror, he doesn't just see a wolf, but a whole lot of characters.

    About the described characteristics of niceness: I think they are all potentialy there, including the weak ones. But I also think it is quite possible to be nice without them. It is about working on your personality, questioning yourself,...

    Anyway, I used to be really harsh on people. It is a talent I seem to have received at birth.

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    I was euh... an unnice person, but always a smile on my face, a mask of invulnerability.

    If I promise to take regular brakes, can someone link me to that website? Thanks

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    It depends on where the nice guy draws the line. You see that in many movies: some nerd (the nice guy) takes a lot crap, than he wakes up, stands up and wins. Afterwards, he is still nice.

    Too often it is a mask for utter weakness.

    If you are nice because you don't dare to be other than nice, because someone told you to be, there could be low self respect.
    If you are nice because you think it is the right way to act, you will have clear boundaries to the niceness and be able to react hard when necessary.

    Although in reality it isn't this black and white.

    Well, he claims his harshness will help the friends he comes down on more than being nice. Since he is starting to run out of friends, I don't think it is the right strategy.

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