New, Improved Obamacare Program Released On 35 Floppy Disks

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Michael, Oct 22, 2013.

  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    He can't.

    He's a reactionary capitalist, for starters, so he doesn't know how (note the rejection of "single payer", or the idea that he can repeal and replace Obamacare simultaneously and very soon) and doesn't actually see any need (nobody's banging on the door at the moment). And he's President, not Congress, so he doesn't have the power.

    Paul Ryan's Speaker of the House. When he gets on board with Government Care, it has a chance - not before.
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  3. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Oh I know, but it's still something Progressive Donald is 100% fully behind - that and forcing companies to return jobs to the USA.

    Oh, and he just stated the USA is pulling out of the TPP. The Japanese have been talking about this since November. While I don't think it matters, that's not the mood over here. I have to say, regardless, I never saw the Japanese give Obama much mind, they liked him, as a novelty I suppose. They used to wear 'Change You Can Believe In' T shirts as a sort of irony and a lark. A joke. Japanese don't trust their politicians as far as they can throw them - and maybe not that far. The way they're talking about Trump is in stark contrast. They never really took him as a joke the way the West has. And they're quite worried he's going to start a trade war with China - not to mention talk of military action.

    Of course, what would Trump know? He's a doofus, right?
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  5. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    So, if all goes as planned, Trump will give you that GovernmentCare you're always going on about. I don't think Wisconsin likes their weasel enough to back him if he stands in the way of The Donald's Twitter account.

    Hahahahahahah..... how funny.

    And, in 30-50 years, it'll be as bad as Government Schooling. That much I can promise.
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  7. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Well surely if trump has got a free market solution it will totally work right? I am 100% willing to let the republicans show us the way, if it works, all the better, if it doesn't, then I will gleefully enjoy watching them be put up against the wall and shot.

    Well considering how good republicans are at defunding and making government suck so they can fulfill their self-fulfilling prophecy: you are probably correct. Considering all the other countries that have universal healthcare, that is cheaper and providing greater coverage, the problem is not government, but republicans.
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    He says he's against single payer, and against forcing companies to do anything - even pay taxes. If you are looking for clues.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2017
  9. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    That'd require ending the federal reserve, and then repealing the 16th amendment to the US Constitution. But here's the thing, just as democracy doesn't work in many areas of the world, due to the lack of culture (and possibly genetic reasons), a free-market / free society isn't going to magically start working in the USA.
    (A) The culture of individual liberty was eroded long ago against the sand paper that is bureaucracy. Americans don't look to themselves, and their community, for solutions - they look to Government.
    (B) It took millennia to develop the fundamental culture and institutions that lead to the enlightenment and founding of America. Perhaps it was a fluke? One that happens, once every 1000 years or so, across history.

    So, if you're looking to Trump to fix anything - for get it.

    Thus, for the sake of argument, assuming we magically had sound currency and a culture of can-do, then it has been estimated that if we begin now, that perhaps in 30 years we may begin to glean the benefits of a totally reformed educational system. Why is this important? Because it takes a long time to train children to think skeptically and to learn medicine. But, let's say we work with what we have, our broken Government School System. Okay, well, thanks to the AMA we're short tens of thousands of general practitioners and specialists. This will require new medial schools opening. Who's going to work in them? Where is this money coming from? Their training alone, not to mention their need to practice, will take decades. It should be noted, doctors are quitting in droves. Why? Some are old, some want the good ole money days of the Baby Boomer Boom, and many because they can't stand the bureaucracy.

    See the total mess Government has made of our society? Healthcare being one aspect.

    The only way to 'fix' the problem is through a free people, working together voluntarily, within the law using an agreed upon medium of exchange. But we don't have that. Which is one of the reasons I suggest that the USA is too large and we should vote to break into smaller countries. One of which could return to the founding principles and in time buy the others back

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    Yes, healthcare in Japan is high quality, and relatively inexpensive. Yes, mostly due to the Government. But not only. I'll elaborate.

    I don't doubt that thanks to the AMA, in the USA, Americans are paying too much. Japanese healthcare efficiencies and culture is not going to happen in the USA. Just as Japan doesn't have a single ghetto - ANYWHERE. Just as Japan doesn't spend as much on education, yet is miles above the US. Just as Japanese use chopsticks and say a little prayer to a flowering tree while walking to work. Just as Japanese worship many gods and are buddhist.

    Some things are just different.

    Americans thought that they could just bomb freedom into Iraq. It didn't work. Why? I'm fairly certain if all Iraqis were removed and replaced with all English or all Japanese - things would be different. Right? Of course. Americans think they can use the Government to get cheap healthcare. It is not going to happen without a cost that will be felt somewhere. Someone is going to pay.

    It's the same in Japan - someone pays.

    Let me paint a scenario: A father is a physician. Why? Because his father was a physician. And so will his son be, a physician. Does the son have a choice to do something else? No. The son will be what he is expected to be: A physician. Without going into the specifics, there are a whole shit ton of cultural norms around doing the right thing that simply do not exist in the USA. At all. Not at all. NOT AT ALL. Take the concept of individualism, flush that out of your head. Take the concept of doing things 'Your' way, flush it. Now take any ideas about multiculturalism, about different communities - these 'concepts' themselves, do not exist. Other than as talking points. You know how Americans are fretting about Trump making a list of Muslims? Well, in Japan, the entire population of Muslims is accounted for per individual, their lives, their food preferences, their bank details - a list of each and every Muslim living in Japan. Grocery bills are accounted for, their Mosques are occasionally bugged with high tech spyware, their bank accounts are fully reported to the Japanese ministry and the calls are recorded etc...

    Does that sound good to you? Japan is not the USA. You cannot have the Japanese healthcare system, without becoming Japanese.

    Further, Japanese are extremely health conscious. Japanese are extremely honest. Japanese probably have an IQ of 103-105. Japan produces almost all of their medicines and export much of their tech. As a producer, Japan can afford to offset their healthcare costs. In a sense, if you own a PC, laptop, an iPhone - then YOU are paying for Japanese healthcare.

    Are their cheaters? Sure. Are their obese? Sure. But no where near the level of the USA.
    Not even close. As in, different universes.

    We are not Japanese.
    What they do, we will not do.

    So, let's go back to the physician who's son will become a doctor. Firstly, this probably sounds a little odd. I mean, what if he doesn't get into a medical school? What if his daughter wants to be the next doctor? Well, the son will get into medical school and his daughter will become a wife and a stay at home mother. Now, the father, as a doctor, he's running a lean operation. Say, charging a bit of rent for some parking places per month. Maybe owns a few vending machines around his small hospital. He works like a dog, day and night. Is meticulous in his work. If the cut is 2 cm by 1 cm deep, then the cost is X, if the cut is 4 cm by 0.5 cm deep, then the cost is Y. All of this, and he's BARELY able to make a living.

    An American, with a high IQ (to get into medical school) would have simply never went into medicine, would have instead went into engineering or banking etc.... this man's son IS going to go into medicine. And if it means eating rice for dinner - that's what he's going to do. Like it or not.

    That is never ever in a million years going to be the case in the USA.

    And yet, with all of this, Japanese do consume around 4000 a year per person. The Government is beginning to cut back on the 'free' stuff as the extremely monocultureal society ages, there is no 'magic'. Someone has to pay. But for now, say a man and wife will pay about 3000 a year. An mid-upper middle class family? Now you're talking 8500 a year. The rest will come from cutting from other services (for example, Japan spends less in public education per student, compared with the USA, they also toll about every road you drive down - yeah, YOU pay for the roads in Japan, many of them anyway).

    In America we spend 9000 per person per year.

    So, where does this money come from? Only 50% of the public pays tax. So that's 18,000 per tax payer. But most tax payers don't ever pay that amount of tax! Jesus, most barely make that much a year. So whatever the bill is, it's going to be higher than 18,000 per tax payer. Where does THAT money come from?

    It's simple math here. Government redistributes - that's its main job (now), so, where is the money going to come from?

    The only way to lower the cost is to produce more of the limited good or service. That means ending the AMA and deregulating healthcare. Exactly the opposite of what most Americans want.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2017
  10. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Yes, thanks to Government, regulatory capture, rent seeking and licencing scams - healthcare is a mess in the USA. Given it is Government that made this mess, it seems insane the Americans are looking towards Government to fix it. Yet, so typical.
  11. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Oh I see we need to remove all government what so ever or else it won't work... so your saying it won't work.

    From the rich?
  12. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    I'm saying the best solution to all of our problems is a limited government who's primary responsibility is ensuring the law is upheld (which protects private property and upholds contract). Outside of this, free people trading voluntarily with one another in an agreed upon medium of exchange will solve the other problems. They will develop the private institutions with moral foundations (voluntarism) who will be able to provide non economical assistance where it is needed. And if not, then we work on why society sucks. What we don't do is reach for the gun. That only leads back here.

    Firstly, that's not going to pay the bill for long. Secondly, the real wealth comes from the middle class, which has been soaked for 9 trillion since the 1960s war on poverty - the poverty rate has literally not moved down at all. It's the exact same. Thirdly, where do you suppose the capital investment needed to create the medicines in the first place, is going to come from?

    But, let's suppose you tax the rich (they're already taxed, so this is part of the budget) more than now. Okay, you remove productive money out of investment into a public service agency, which takes a nice slice for itself, then begins to inefficiently paying for healthcare. Let's suppose it pushes the bill down from 32,000 per tax payer, to 18,0000 per tax payer.

    Where's the rest coming from?

    Also, given you'll be paying for more people's healthcare - you'll be paying more FOR healthcare. Taxing the rich is a nice accounting trick, it doesn't do much in terms of creating new eye specialists, that takes a decade+ of training after highschool. The money spent taxing the rich, will have been long spent in the first year.

    Then what?

    The only solution for a sustainable healthcare system is to increase the goods and services through free-market competition. Surely it must seem odd that we have LESS medical schools now, compared with 120 years ago. I mean, wtf. We have Americans (rich enough) flying everywhere from the Philippines, Australia and the Caribbean to buy their MD's. If you think the quality in an Australian medical school is the same as the USA, you may want to think again.

    Anyway, taxing the rich will still leave the average tax payer with a 10,000 plus a year healthcare bill. If you want to lower this, you have to cut. Where do you suppose we cut from? Which politician is going to tell Grade 4 barely literate Americans they have to pay more? Who doesn't want reelected?

    Not to mention, other bills are going to be coming due: SSI payments will be increasing on the outflow, rather than the in flow as BabyBoomers age into their nappy's. Are you going to cut their SSI they paid in to? More Boomers will shift onto Medicaid naturally. Can't cut that, this is what you want to pay for. How about the small little 20 trillion - at least the interest is going to have to be paid on as well. Just default?

    Where is all this money going to come from?

    Start with 9,000 per American or 18,000 per tax payer. Most people don't even make 18,000. So you'll have to soak the middle class with the bill. Will middle class America be happy to suck up another additional 1500 a month in healthcare payment per person (not family) in order to continue to subsidize the rest of American that they're already working their arse off for? How will that effect the rest of the economy, all the shops that depend on that money being spent, not on healthcare, but on shit people want.

    Again, no solution to this problem will come from redistribution without some majorly pissed off Americans. And so no politician will offer a solution. And they shouldn't have to be in this place to begin with. Their role should be small and insignificant. Instead of violating the constitution, they should be upholding it.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2017
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    I'd also say, this problem is over a hundred years in the making. From one step to another we ended up here. It's not going to be fixed easily. It's not even like we just walked 100 years off to the side, it'd be like turning around a walking 100 years in the exact opposite direction. Thus, whatever problems there were 100 years ago, those are not solved AND we have all these additional problems.

    As an example, I mention the War on Drugs. Only made possible AFTER the AMA was able to secure the extremely lucrative Rx market. A huge win for the side of evil. The Drug War is just a side product of that single act. The PIC, just a side note to that act. The Police State - another side note. The NSA spying, often justified as a part of the War on Drugs. The Civil Forfeiture Acts - all a side note and unintended consequences of the Rx monopolization, itself only possible with the MD monopolization.

    Our entire way of life has been altered. That's not going to be fixed by electing Trump (or a WarHarpy), as a dictator or otherwise. ALL of the possible solutions that could have been, never were. And never will be.

    That's why I say: We don't live in America. We live in the USA. We shouldn't be afraid to end this Nation State Union (with a vote) and we shouldn't feel sympathy for our past - that country no longer exists. But it can. If people are willing to change. REAL change we can believe in

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    Not likely to happen in a century.
  14. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    That sounds on fine and neat on paper, but it will never happen in reality, reality as these things call talking ape, also called humans, that don't operate consistently or rationally, and we must deal with and operate within the limit of the conveniences they create.

    Why not? Seems to work fine in the Nordic model countries.
  15. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    An interesting thought experiment could be this: If you own 250 USD. You are a part of the 1%. You're richer than 99% of the people on planet Earth. Did you steal that wealth? Would taking your 250 dollars down to say 50 dollars, given away the 200 - would this lead to a prosperous world?

  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    It did actually work on paper. That's the founding principles of the USA. Humans may not think rationally most of the time, they don't have to. Once the use of Government force is no longer an option, then they have to resort to providing value voluntarily.

    In the late 1940s black Americans were quite poor. Perhaps 80% lived in poverty. But, while hard to imagine today (thanks to Government) the Black family was intact. Even centuries of Slavery hadn't destroyed the institution of the family. That would require socialism.

    Without Government, Black Americans worked hard, they were like the Chinese of today - only better, because unlike Chinese, they were known to create high quality product for a low price. Particularly in metal works. Stop and think about this. They DID NOT have the option to vote for free shit, so they got to work and created value. The poverty rate dropped from 80 to mid 40s in a little under 20 years. They were becoming rich. They had a lower divorce rate than Whites. Did less drugs.

    The American experiment was working.

    That's when the White Socialists used Government to impose a minimum wage. The Boer in SA did this EXACT same thing, with the EXACT same consequences. This is why I oppose Trumps' trade war with China.

    My point being, don't expect a solution to happen in under 20 years - but with free markets, a sound currency and law, with a LIMITED government, and the solutions will be found. Particularly in medicine, it's such a fat peach to be plucked. I mean, the industry is hemorrhaging and money is there to be made easily. It's a lucrative market, or could be, if the rent-seeking was ended.

    Let's see how that plays out for Sweden in the next 20 years.
  17. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Why not?

    Certainly I did not work hard for it. If I was say Trump and born rich, and given million dollars loans from people I hustled, it is very close to stealing.
  18. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    But the use of government force always was an option.

    You think black americans are the way they are because of "socialism"? How come all the other countries with welfare don't have these problems? Here an alternate theory, mass imprisonment of black males ruined the black families, coupled with outsourcing and automation since the 70's which took well paying urban manufacturing jobs for low skilled workers, with no father figures but pimps and gangsters blacks found themselves caught in a cycle of thuggery and a culture now based around thuggery.

    How about all the other countries that have minimum wages?

    Or in 20 years Strong AI comes around and we either put everyone on basic income, or we exterminate the poor, or the poor revolt and exterminate the rich, your choice.

    There are other factors that could take down Sweden in 20 years.

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  19. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    If you were born in America, you were born rich relative to 99.99% of people on this planet. They probably think YOU stole your wealth, just by being born American.

    Should they be given the vote to return to them all that you have stolen? And in our case, given we engage in phony wars, we actually ARE stealing (through the use the petrodollar).

    Anyway, if you save and give your wealth to your children, that's your business. Not any else's. Some people spend THEIR wealth. Other's work a lifetime, paying tax all along the way, to leave what's left of their wealth to their children. It really doesn't matter - it's theirs to give.

    That said, a good solution is competing currencies. Which doesn't involve stealing. Also, you can know everything about each dollar - should you want to have such a currency. That way you can see how it is spent, who spends it and on what. How's that sound? Best of all, it's value is determined through voluntary use as a medium of exchange.
  20. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    That's not what the data suggest. Socialism destroyed the black family which was intact in the 1950s. Socialism paid for the wrong type of woman, to have children, and paid them more if there was no father present and more if he was in prison, and more if she had many children. This is what has destroyed the black family (it's done the exact same thing to the White family, of which there are many more poor). Lack of a father has certainly led to weird quazi father replacement, such as gangsta's culture.

    The data suggest it was socialism.
  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Like which?

    Which countries had large populations of blacks who were purposely put out of work through implementation of minimum wage? South Africa is one, and they did exactly this. Japan has a minimum wage, but they're a monoculture (the wage is very low by the way). Singapore has no minimum wage. Australia has a minimum wage, but the Aboriginals rarely work in the cities to compete for job, so usually it's Asians doing these jobs.

    Well, that's to be seen. Again, free people can choose their medium of exchange. And no one, not AI or otherwise, create things no one can purchase.

    If anything, I look forward to the day AI is here. I'd love some help on a few projects

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    One does not preclude the other, but, we'll see. And I don't mean destroy as in gone. I mean destroy as in they will be like us, in the USA. For the same reasons.
  22. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Oh so the goal post is "large populations of blacks who were purposely put out of work through implementation of minimum wage" Oh and it is a you present a conclusion without a premise. The question you present is completely invalid. Why would blacks suffer from minimum wage when poor people in other countries don't?

    We don't live in a single world government. All I'm asking for is reasonably taxing those that have the resources to be taxed, a billionaire could stand to lose a few billion and still be unbelievably rich.

    What data?

    and? so? You completely ignored the conclusion that those without capital will do in that future.
  23. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

    Funny thing, CNN is now releasing 35 episodes on Obama and his everlastingly genuine legacy, airing every day. What a bore.

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