Nationalism.

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by GRO$$, Mar 25, 2002.

  1. GRO$$ Registered Senior Member

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    A couple of days ago my history teacher said it is all right to consider the life of an citicen of America more valuable than the life of someone of another nationality... is it just me or is that a little wrong?
     
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  3. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

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    Your teacher is insane, and probably has cooties. All world history shall be taken ONLY from the book I am currently writing, entitled A History Of Earth, According To El Presidente Adam.
     
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  5. KneD Le Penseur Registered Senior Member

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    After correction:
    It is logical to consider the life of a citicen of your country more valuable than the life of someone of another nationality.

    That's the way I see it, I don't think it is right though.
    I have the idea that in the US most people think american citicens are more valuable than others......am I right here?

    anyway, it is difficult to see if it is right; When we say life has the same value, wherever you live, we have to mention that animals are alive too, and most people see a human live as more valuable.

    And, extraterrestrial life, is it nationalism to think a Mr. human is more valuable than Mr. Alien????

    I don't agree with the teacher, but it is difficult to draw the line.
     
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  7. GRO$$ Registered Senior Member

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    I think that this feeling of extreme nationalism is very much more often found in americans than other nationalities. As I said, I believe it is wrong. America is being taught that it is better than the rest of the world... was not the last nationality to do that led by Hitler?
     
  8. Robeson Registered Senior Member

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    Since when has pride been such a bad thing. If someone wishes to be strongly nationalistic let them. In regards to American's being more valuable than others I wholheartedly disagree. American's are equal in value to every other human on the face of this planet. The value of that human is also a sum that can never be reached.
     
  9. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    It makes sense.

    It is based on the principle of loyalty to your group.

    For example whoose life would you consider more important - a family member or the member of another family?

    If it was your decision as to who had to die in some diabolical situation then what criteria would you use?

    The chances are you are more likely to be able to relate to and support the culture and way of life of a fellow countryman than a foreigner who might well have quite a different culture and may not even speak the same language.

    Logic dictates that you should help protect the survival of your own group before any other to ensure your own way of life.

    However, if you consider yourself a member of the human race with no other sub-heirarchy then you would have to treat everyone on an equal basis.

    Cris
     
  10. *stRgrL* Kicks ass Valued Senior Member

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    No, your not right. Maybe a certain percentage of people here think they are better than other people, but Im almost positive every other country has that same percentage of people who believe they are better than Americans.


    No, animals are not a civilized species.

    It is possible some of us have that attitude because the rest of the world hates our guts and wants us dead.

    By who?? Because 1 ignorant teacher was teaching a class. Ive never been taught that, neither has anyone I know bee taught that.


    I myself, do not think I am better than anyone else and if a person does think they are better - its usually because of how their parents raised them - not what country they are from

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  11. Neutrino_Albatross Legion of Dynamic Discord Registered Senior Member

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    Ive always hated how on the news they talk about a disaster in some other country and finish it up by saying "Luckily however no americans were hurt" as if that makes it all right.

    That kinda thing thouroughly pisses me off.
     
  12. *stRgrL* Kicks ass Valued Senior Member

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    If there was a school shooting at your kids school, wouldnt you say "Luckily, my kids wasnt hurt?"
    It would still be a tragety, but you would have that relieving sense that your kids are okay. Its the same principal really.

    Take care

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  13. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    "It is possible some of us have that attitude because the rest of the world hates our guts and wants us dead."

    For the most part outsiders either hate America or love it. A lot of the youth that hate America basically hate it because they're in the time of life when they jump on the bandwagon. However, hating AmeriCANS is a different thing altogether.

    For instance, I'm from Toronto which means going to Buffalo is quite easy. Buffalo is a good place to spend a day....decent wings, cheap stores. However, I can't stand 90% of the people in Buffalo. They tend to be over-nationalistic, overweight, AMAZINGLY rude and inconsiderate of others. There's a typical view of Canadians internationaly that includes us being very polite. To Canadians, it doesn't look that way. It looks like we're normal and Americans are just very rude. (Keep in mind I'm generalizing. Obviously I don't speak for every Canadian or about every American). Even American speech patterns sound more rude to us. Watch a tv show long enough and a Canadian joke pops up about us saying 'eh' a lot. Well, yes we do. We say it in place of you guys saying 'huh'. And personally, while 'eh' sounds french and more polite, 'huh' sounds like a cave-man grunt. Another typical reason to make fun of Americans is their total lack of knowledge of the nation directly north of them (not to mention every other nation. Americans are very, very good at their own history, but brutal at internation knowledge in general). There's a tv special here by a Canadian comic called; 'Talking To Americans'. On it, Rick Merser goes to different areas of the States posing as a Canadian news reporter and talking to the public about the most ridiculous things, proving how little they know about Canada. Examples; 'How do you feel about Canada changing to the 24 hour clock?'....'How do you feel about Canada legalizing pennecilin?'......'How do you feel about Canadian Prime Minister Jean Poutine (his name is Chretien) getting a double-double (which is a special at Tim Hortons)?'.....'How do you feel about Canada legalizing football?'.....'How do you feel about Canada going metric?'........and the funniest was one right before your guys elections........Merser got a chance to ask Bush how he felt about 'Jean Poutine' in power in Canada and Bush went along with it, even calling him Poutine not Chretien (everyone went on about this one being the funniest but I disagree. Bush looked like he was in a hurry to get somewhere and not really paying attention).......but after that Merser got a one-on-one with a Bush aid who was very sincere in Bush's relationships with 'Mr. Poutine'.
     
  14. *stRgrL* Kicks ass Valued Senior Member

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    And Im assuming that you got this impression of us by the few people you pass on the street? Look, Ive never been to NY, and I do hear that the people can be very rude there. Ive also heard the French are quite rude also. And that Germans are Nazis, and Polish are ignorant, and Aussies are drunks. Ive also heard that all blonds are bimbos and that people who wear glasses are smarter. But Ive never really been to those places so I dont know. I DO know that just because some people act a certain way, does not mean the whole country shares those actions. Just like we Osama and company decided to blow up our buildings and kill our citizens, I didnt look at the country he lives and say "What a bunch of assholes." There is good people in a country and there is bad people in a country. Deal with it.
    Maybe its because I live here, but Ive have never ever heard somebody actually say "America is better than so and so country." Never. I have heard people say "Im sure glad I live here and not so and so country. But there is nothing wrong with having pride for the country in which you live.
    Its really upsetting that so many people can knock a country where there are so many hardworking struggling citizens who are trying to make in this world, just like everyone else.

    Thanks for listening and take care

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  15. Lesion42 Deranged Hermit Registered Senior Member

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  16. Tyler Registered Senior Member

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    "And Im assuming that you got this impression of us by the few people you pass on the street? Look, Ive never been to NY, and I do hear that the people can be very rude there. Ive also heard the French are quite rude also. And that Germans are Nazis, and Polish are ignorant, and Aussies are drunks. Ive also heard that all blonds are bimbos and that people who wear glasses are smarter."

    Actually, for the first part of your question, no. I've gone to a lot of hockey training camps which were usually made up of a ton of Canadians and Americans and a couple Europeans. I've been to the U.S. every year of my life since I was 6. I've stayed in San Fran, NY, Buffalo I've been to too many times to count (but yes, Bufallo is not a good gauge of america), Detroit, New Orleans, Washington, Colorado, through Maine, California, Florida....do you want me to go on? I have what I would consider a good knowledge of world cultures. My family, and I am EXTREMELY thankful of this, believes in travel and my parents believe in taking my sister and I with them everywhere they go. So, I have seen a lot of areas of the world except none of Africa.

    French people are rude, if they think you're American. The minute you start trying to speak English to them they act rude. If you make an effort to speak French, they are VERY polite and helpful. At least in my experience. And like I said elsewhere, I've stayed in France for a few extended periods of time.

    Never been to Poland, and never heard that comment. Germans I never had a problem with. And I'm taking it you skipped over my sentances that stated I obviously don't speak about every American, right?


    "Maybe its because I live here, but Ive have never ever heard somebody actually say "America is better than so and so country." Never. I have heard people say "Im sure glad I live here and not so and so country. But there is nothing wrong with having pride for the country in which you live."

    Americans have more pride in their country than any other first world nation, I would say. To the point where most (key word being most, as I'm sure you'll skip over it and assume I said all) Americans I encounter are ignorant to the outside. Whether this is a good or bad thing can easily be debated.


    "Its really upsetting that so many people can knock a country where there are so many hardworking struggling citizens who are trying to make in this world, just like everyone else."

    It's amazing that so many hardworking, struggling citizens can boo another nation's national anthem and pride.....but then that wasn't a big deal, was it? I mean, it's not like a national anthem is a representation of the nation itself, is it? So booing the anthem would not be like completely disrespecting the nation for no reason, would it?
     
  17. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    Originally posted by *stRgrL*
    So humans are more valuable then the animals here on Earth? Never saw an animal throwing bombs at other species. Did you? I prefer the animals much more, above humans.

    Nationalism is not neccesarrily a part of every human being. I think every human being has the right to be, no matter what their nationality is. In my opinion and what I see happening in this human civilization, is that the U$ are playing a big part in this civilization. They mind in every country if they get the chance. Look at the world, look at the Middle - East. Hell, look at the Netherlands, even there the U$ has a role to play. It seems the U$ want to have control over everything that's happening in this civilization, like they know all the answers. A lot of U$ citizens act this way also. Well, I live in the U$ for a little while now and have to say, that looking at all the flags on the houses here and the "slogan", god bless america", on it, says a lot more then words. Why does the bigger part of the U$ citizens agree on all the bombing, for instance? Because they like to see the U$ win, on every part, U$ first, then a while nothing, then U$ again and later, much lower un the ladder ther'll be another country. remember that the U$ is not that old. Countries in Europe and the East are much older. In fact, every U$ citizen is part of Europe, the East, Africa or so. Except for the Natives who lived in the Americas a lot longer.

    I am real sorry to say so, I'm just ticked off by their everlasting stirring in other countries affairs.

    Guess a lot of the U$ citizens are more nationalistic yes, then people from other countries. And hey, exceptions confirm the rule everywhere.

    Why is it that U$ citizens don't know other languages? Yes, they are taught at school, who uses a different language, besides English then? Other countries have English taught to young children from their 8th year on. Oh, forget it, to much to write down now. it's just an example.

    Oh yes, there are a few other countries which try to take over control, on a much lesser scale, though.
    In the Netherlands there are very nationalistic people too. I wonder what it is in humans that they have to think their country is better and more good, in politics, freedom and so on. Why not let every human being be, in his/her own value...

    (as far as teaching this nationalism at schools, I do believe it happens yes, not only in the U$, though)
     
  18. *stRgrL* Kicks ass Valued Senior Member

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    This is what you said earlier:



    Now, Im sorry, when exactly did you say "most", because it looks like in your post that your referring to all of us. And Im sorry if it feels that im attacking you personally, but I get offended when someone makes a comment about American in general. Just like you take it personal when someone boos your national anthem.

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  19. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Banshee

    If you hate the US so much, why don't you go back from whence you came? Is someone holding a gun to your head?

    It's interesting that the US is the one country in the world where everyone is beating on the doors to get in, yet all they ever do is bash America.

    It's the greatest country in the world and everyone knows it.

    *Q stands, places hand over heart and begins to sing anthem*
     
  20. *stRgrL* Kicks ass Valued Senior Member

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    Right on Q!

    Well Im sorry that you dont hold us humans as highly as you do animals. I myself would care more if a child died than a dog or cat - but thats just me. And no, I didnt say animals are more valuable, I said they were uncivilized. Now, shall we argue about that - because I dont care what anyone says, animals are not civilized.

    To get into college - a person has to have 2 years of high school languages taught - and thats any state college or university. But why should we have to learn anyways? Its good to know, but why should it be mandatory? To make the rest of the world feel better? And its not our fault you guys have to learn English, take that up with your school system.

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    Last edited: May 2, 2002
  21. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    *Xev places her hand over her heart and begins to sing, skipping over obligitory references to God*

    Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
    What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
    Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
    O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
    And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
    Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
    O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
    O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

    On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
    Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
    What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
    As it fitfully blows, now conceals, now discloses?
    Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
    In full glory reflected now shines on the stream:
    'Tis the star-spangled banner! O long may it wave
    O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

    And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
    That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
    A home and a country should leave us no more?
    Their blood has wiped out their foul footstep's pollution.
    No refuge could save the hireling and slave
    From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
    And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
    O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

    Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
    Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
    Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
    Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
    Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
    And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
    And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
    O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

    Banshee, why don't you go back to wherever the fuck you came from? You're a fool and an ungrateful little bitch and I would much rather see an honest Mexican immigrant take your place.

    Really, it's people like her who make most immigrants look bad. She comes over here, on our bounty, to our country, and proceeds to insult us at every turn.
    There are thousands and thousands of people who come here and become good, patriotic Americans who may not agree with the government's actions (hell, disagreeing with the government occasionally is a requirement of patriotism!) but who love their new country.

    BTW, I am American and I know two other languages besides English, though not as well as I wish.

    Thanks *stRgrL*, yes, I do have to have at least two semesters of German, or four semesters of French or Spanish* to enter the University of Michigan.

    Thanks Q.

    *About, I forget the exact requirements.

    On topic:

    I do not know if I would give preference to an American over a Brit, for instance, in a triage situation. However, I can understand the mentality of those who do. As Cris pointed out, it is simple group loyalty.

    And many, many other animals commit murder, rape, and chimps have been known to act in a manner that is very simular to genocide.

    Edited for ranting.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2002
  22. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Banshee

    So humans are more valuable then the animals here on Earth? Never saw an animal throwing bombs at other species. Did you?

    I never saw that, but I did see a dog eating cat shit.

    I prefer the animals much more, above humans.

    Why am I not surprised. That is the typical response of an anti-social paranoid.
     
  23. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Grrrrr. More ranting:

    {Caution: May scare children and small animals}

    Which reveals your ignorence of even the rudiments of zoology. However, feel free to leave human society.

    So, you would prefer that we stepped out of the Middle East and let the Isrealis and Pallies slaughter each other? You would prefer that we had let Miloslovich's genocide go unnoticed? Perhaps you would rather that we just bugger out of Afghanistan once our mission is completed?

    Damn right it does. I hope that your country is never attacked like ours was on September 11th. But if it is, I will never chide your attempts to cope, and your increased feelings of patriotism.

    Because we do not enjoy seeing our loved ones and our countrymen die?

    Nope. We're young and full of vitality.

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    And neither the verbal attacks of stupid twats nor the actual attacks of evil men will stop us. We will continue to live in freedom, democracy, and hopefully in peace. And very hopefully, we will be exporting these ideals more and more.

    And yes, that is cultural imperealism. Deal the fuck with it, because we are not going away. Attacking us may be easier when we look like we were weakened, but such attacks will still fail.
     

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