NASA validates seemingly impossible space thruster

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by Kittamaru, Jul 31, 2014.

  1. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    10,356
    Monsieur, with these Rocher you are really spoiling us.

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    First, what does your job have to do with your inability / unwillingness to provide evidence / support for your claims?
    Second, what does your job have to do with your obnoxiousness
    Mine consists of applying the scientific method to analyse problems and devise solutions. But of what relevance is one's job to the price of eggs?
     
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  3. OnlyMe Valued Senior Member

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    Depends upon the job!.. But as far as the discussion generally is concerned, only so far as the price of eggs is associated one's journey toword insanity.

    Which I suspect there is greater danger of in the wrong company, than in none at all.., or the price of eggs.
     
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  5. Arne Saknussemm trying to figure it all out Valued Senior Member

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    1,353
    And you admit that? What are you a corporate spy? "Given or obtained? by whom? If it is 'given' why don't they give you the blueprints as well? Obtained by moles and traitors? This all sounds extremely shady.
     
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  7. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    Scientific Metrology.
     
  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,635
    Which they would have on all planned missions.
    Yes, and many of them have successfully isolated small groups for months and even years without everyone going crazy.
     
  9. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    You clearly did not read the link he provided. Because none of it supports your claims.

    Secondly, you have yet to substantiate any of your claims. I find it bizarre that you cannot post links. If that is such a problem for you, then tell us the name of the studies/articles/papers, the date and authors of the studies you are trying to link and we can find them ourselves.

    And finally, I am not here to argue with you. I have come here in response to a review request from a colleague, specifically to get you to substantiate your claims, which you are refusing to do. This is not the fringe sub-forums where you can get some leeway. You have 3 days from the next time you are on and failure to comply will result in moderation. If you are unable to post the links, then post the titles, author's names and dates of the studies you are referring to. I hope I have made myself clear?

    Have a nice day!
     
  10. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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  11. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    13,938
    Alrighty, so:

    http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=20140006052

     
  12. rpenner Fully Wired Valued Senior Member

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    4,833
    "quantum vacuum virtual plasma" -- a claim that the effect sought after produces thrust even in vacuum and the experiment should be designed to measure something different than convection currents in an unequally heated chamber filled with air.

    "Testing was performed ... within a stainless steel vacuum chamber with the door closed but at ambient atmospheric pressure." -- Experimental design that seems intrinsically flawed.

    "Thrust was observed on both test articles, even though one of the test articles was designed with the expectation that it would not produce thrust." -- Suggestive that they aren't measuring the effect that they sought to measure.

    http://scienceblogs.com/principles/2014/08/04/impossible-thruster-probably-impossible/
    http://blogs.scienceforums.net/swansont/archives/15155
    https://plus.google.com/117663015413546257905/posts/WfFtJ8bYVya
    https://plus.google.com/117663015413546257905/posts/C7vx2G85kr4
    And a link to the paper itself: http://rghost.net/57230791 From Part VI:
     
  13. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    23,198
    Here is video #2 on subject with big dreams of 2nd generation using supercooled RF cavity (Qs up 10^9 rather than a few thousand with room temp copper) so same EM field requires only tiny energy input. Believe it or not they are speaking of tons of thrust!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmfPNuhy0mc

    I have doubts conservation of moment can be violated but the test with 2nd generation would give a clear test.
     
  14. rpenner Fully Wired Valued Senior Member

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    4,833
    [table][tr][th]year[/th][th]who[/th][th]Watts[/th][th]Newtons (claimed)[/th][th]Momentum on mirror by same-wattage laser[/th][/tr]
    [tr][td]2001[/td][td]Shawyer[/td][td]850[/td][td]0.016[/td][td]0.0000057[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]2008[/td][td]Yang Juan, et.al.[/td][td]2500[/td][td]0.720[/td][td]0.000017[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]2013[/td][td]Brady, et. al.[/td][td]28[/td][td]0.00004[/td][td]0.00000019[/td][/tr]
    [tr][td]?[/td][td]?[/td][td]?[/td][td]n × 10000[/td][td]0.00000000667 Newtons per Watt[/td][/tr]
    [/table]
    Tons of force would require 1) the effect is real and 2) scaling it up more than 4 orders of magnitude.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2014
  15. Beaconator Valued Senior Member

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    1,486
    Suggests classical designs never knew what momentum was.
     
  16. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    Just think a new term coined by NASA scientists. "Quantum vacuum virtual plasma". Ionized virtual particles. Like to see that physics. NASA great experiment but not exactly the hotbed for theoretical physics..
     
  17. Beaconator Valued Senior Member

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    1,486
    Unless theory can strip all electrons from every element put into the LHC at maximum capacity, light will still dominate our atmosphere and a multitude of ionized virtual particles will be a pipe dream.
     
  18. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    2,830
    this "engineering miracle" is living on a media hype. It will die out soon.
     
  19. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    5,051
    "They" in the case of that video is not NASA, it is the originator of this junk science (scam?), so that video has no value at all.

    In order for there to be a second generation EM Drive, there would first need to be a first generation. Right now, all this is is an overly complicated and expensive electric heater.

    I'm dismayed that NASA would waste my tax dollars investigating this junk and even more dismayed that the "scientists" tasked with investigating it appear to have been absent the day in Junior High when the scientific method was taught.
     
  20. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    13,938
    It's funny, you know... everyone who is saying this is a "waste of time" and a "waste of tax dollars"...

    you remind me of someone...

    You remind me of all the people that said the same kind of things about heavier than air flight...
    You remind me of all the people that said the same kind of things about racial equality and womens rights...
    You remind me of all the people that said the same kind of things about putting a man on the moon...
    And you remind me of all the people that still say the same kinds of things about putting a man on Mars...

    In the end... it isn't a matter of whether or not this particular device works... it's a matter of investigating new ideas and pushing the boundaries of technology.

    Can you imagine what the world would be like if, say, Einstein or Edison or Tesla had only used "known proven" ideas, instead of experimenting with the unknown?
     
  21. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    5,051
    Oy, really? Scientists remind you of racists? NASA should be better than this and so should a moderator of a science site. Both your attitude and judgement are very disappointing.

    Knowing the known is what leads scientists to the real unknown, Kittamaru. Science is not done by gullibly copying the work of an internet scammer/crackpot. You insult Einstein (et al)by invoking him in this veign.
     
  22. rpenner Fully Wired Valued Senior Member

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    4,833
    It's not the boundaries of technology, but boundaries of science. Except microwaves and cavities seems to be a topic well-within the boundaries of science that says momentum is conserved in quantum electrodynamical phenomena.

    Francis Bacon: Knowledge is power.
    Ben Parker: With great power comes great responsibility.
    Carl Sagan: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    Those of us with the background to understand the status quo are being responsible to explain that this is a squashed, greasy packet of extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence.
     
  23. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    8,466
    Michel Siffre-----self imposed isolation--------6 months alone in a cave, started off well, but by day 79, departed from sanity, never to fully recover.
    well documented in the psychological literature. (length of day study---26-28 hours on average)

    In a recent interview, he said that he wished he had never done the experiment,
     

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